Ammasi Periasamy (University of Virginia)
Welcome to The Microscopists, a bite sized bio podcast hosted by Peter O'Toole, sponsored by Zeiss Microscopy. Today on the Microscopists
Peter O'Toole:Today on Microscopists, Amarsi Pebasami taught humble beginnings in India before founding the Keck Centre.
Ammasi Periasamy:In my home, I was a guest. All the time, high school also, I was not in my home. I was in my uncle's house because there was no high school, in my village.
Peter O'Toole:Adjusting to the culture of the USA after moving from India.
Ammasi Periasamy:Adjusting with the people, yes. There was an issue, you know. As you know, in India, you give respect to the elders, whatever they say, even it is wrong, you listen.
Peter O'Toole:And his toughest times in academia.
Ammasi Periasamy:The first time in the academic life, always getting grants. Right? That is the toughest time for sure.
Peter O'Toole:All in this episode of The Microscopists. Hi. I'm Pete Fraser from the University of York, and welcome to this episode of The Microscopist. Cross. Today, I have a special guest, Amasi Perasamy.
Peter O'Toole:Amasi, how are you today?
Ammasi Periasamy:I'm doing okay. Great.
Peter O'Toole:So I don't you won't remember this. You definitely won't remember this, but I remember meeting you in 2, 000 and 3 2, 002, 2003 in Genoa at Focus on Microscopy that was organized by, Albi.
Ammasi Periasamy:I think it is 2, 004. Is it 2, 004? Yeah. I think so. 2, 001, 2, 002, we have the COVID.
Ammasi Periasamy:Right?
Peter O'Toole:Oh, sorry. No. Sorry. No. 2, 000 sorry.
Peter O'Toole:2, 000 and 3. 2, 004.
Ammasi Periasamy:Oh, I see. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Maybe.
Ammasi Periasamy:Yeah. Alright. Yeah. Yes. I don't remember.
Ammasi Periasamy:Okay.
Peter O'Toole:So as a young PhD postdoc that was doing, Fret work at the time. I used to follow a lot of your posts on the Confocal listserv.
Ammasi Periasamy:Okay. Yes.
Peter O'Toole:Especially, you know, when I was sort of learning the ropes, as it were, back then. And I moved to York and went to focus on microscopy and got very fortunate. I think it was Patrick Courtney.
Ammasi Periasamy:Right,
Peter O'Toole:PerkinElmer that, introduced us and we we had some dinner.
Ammasi Periasamy:Oh, I see. I see. Okay.
Peter O'Toole:It is a pleasure to meet you again. So I don't think we've come across each other again since then.
Ammasi Periasamy:Yeah. We we do not. You know, if you come to the SPIE meeting, to focus on microscopy, we can meet. I always say do not travel much. Only these 2 conferences, I do not miss.
Ammasi Periasamy:I always try to attend.
Peter O'Toole:Which would be FOM and
Ammasi Periasamy:SPIE. Yeah. SPIE, I cannot miss because I am organizing the multiphore down microscopy conference. I have to be there. I am the chair.
Peter O'Toole:You see, that that was 1 of my questions. Usually, it's what is your favorite conference?
Ammasi Periasamy:I would say SPIA, Multiphonam Micronom Micronom. And second 1 is for sure. I love that meeting, particularly if it is in Europe. You see a lot of exhibits of, new instrument, new approach. I really like that microscopy and new developments
Peter O'Toole:photophoton side in a bit, but you're currently at the University of Washington, I think.
Ammasi Periasamy:Yes. No. You're in Virginia.
Peter O'Toole:Oh, sorry. Virginia. In Washington.
Ammasi Periasamy:In Charlottesville, close to Washington, about 2 hours drive.
Peter O'Toole:When did you move over to the US?
Ammasi Periasamy:Oh, a long time ago. It's 19 85 or 86.
Peter O'Toole:Wow. That
Ammasi Periasamy:okay. That's it. That's fine. Yeah. As a postdoc, University of Washington, Seattle.
Peter O'Toole:And so if that was back in 86, you I I presume, therefore, you studied in India before?
Ammasi Periasamy:Yes. I my PhD is from Indian Institute of Technology, Madras
Peter O'Toole:So from
Ammasi Periasamy:in biomedical engineering.
Peter O'Toole:Why the move to the US?
Ammasi Periasamy:Well, I have a lot of interest when I was a grad I I'm basically a physics in masters in physics. When I was a student, I used to think about the time resolved, the lifetime measurements all the time. They teach, and, you know, at that time, you have only exponential decay. I wanted to do something new, so I had the opportunity. I was actually working as assistant professor in the local university after my PhD.
Ammasi Periasamy:And as you know, in India, getting job is not easy. And if you get a better job, they don't want you to leave. But I always try to advance my research activities in a better way. So when the opportunity came in, at that time, they got up the Department of Physics, where he was teaching on medical physics. And he suggested me, you have a great potential.
Ammasi Periasamy:You should go to US. I had a 4 office to select, and then I chosen the, University of Washington, Seattle. And I came on you know? Slowly, I changed. There, I built the polarization microscopy for investigating the cardiac muscle fiber contraction.
Ammasi Periasamy:That really led to me to involve in microscopy development, new ideas to solve, new questions involving biological and as well as clinical applications. So that's that's the reason my my interest is always in science. I wanted to do something new. Applications side, not in field physics. That's why I changed to biomedical engineering.
Peter O'Toole:You just preempted my question of how did you buy you know, as a physicist, why did you go into addressing biological questions or or using your physics to to to develop tools to better address biological tools?
Ammasi Periasamy:That's correct.
Peter O'Toole:The biology?
Ammasi Periasamy:Yeah. Physics is, you know, all the system based on physics. In biology, you really understand if you have a physics background, how it works. And on the instrumentation side, the physics is the big and engineering side too. My father told me, why don't you go for engineering?
Ammasi Periasamy:After I I passed in the high school or 3 university, and I told him I want to be a scientist. Okay. Cool. So that's how that's how we're involved in science. Since high school, I have been more motivated to do something positive, something benefit from this to the society.
Ammasi Periasamy:So you learn something, teach the students whatever you learned, and things like that. I I have that kind of motivation. That's why I started the workshop on FRET microscopy and running a conference, things like that. So, that is the motivation why I decided to from physics, pure physics to applied, area.
Peter O'Toole:So tell you, your your father was obviously a clear inspiration to you in that in that aspect and kicking pushing you into a sort of site that I'm not pushing you, but, inspiring you to go onto a science.
Ammasi Periasamy:Yeah. I mean, that's the way they do that. Right? I tell my son, hey, why don't you study this? But he said, no.
Ammasi Periasamy:I want to go for aviation engineering. Okay. You know? That's how it goes. Yeah.
Ammasi Periasamy:No. He he went to aviation engineering, so I recommended him to study biomedical engineering. That also he can go to NASA. Any degree you study, if you do well, you can go to NASA. That's not a problem.
Ammasi Periasamy:But he decided to go for, emission engineering the same way me. I want to be a scientist, So, okay, go for physics. So that's what I did. Do you just have
Peter O'Toole:the 1 son? Do you have any other family, children?
Ammasi Periasamy:I have a 1 son and 1 daughter. Daughter is a a radiologist, working in my university hospital, and my son is a aviation engineer. He was working for NASA for a couple of years, and then he went for system engineering, and he said he is planning to run his own company. So whatever he wants to do, it's okay.
Peter O'Toole:So both are scientists. What about your partner? Is she a scientist as well?
Ammasi Periasamy:No. I came from, my father, is a farmer. I came from a village, and, and I am the I was the only graduated person from the my whole society. I would say maybe, you know, my father is head of the village. What do you they call it as president or something like that.
Ammasi Periasamy:So, yeah, until he retired, he was. And my same as my grandfather. So all are farmers, and they are all kind of leaders in the village. And, so I studied well. My father philosophy I have a, I have a brother and sister, but my brother always fails in his exam, even in the elementary school, high school, actually, final high school he failed.
Ammasi Periasamy:My my father, idea is that if he failed, you ought to come and take care of the lands, and you should not continue. So, I was always 1st in the class, in everything, high school, so he allowed me to go further and further. So that's how I continued, and, he's he did not push me. I just tell him, okay. I finished my finished my BS in physics in 1st class.
Ammasi Periasamy:I want to go for masters. He said, okay. So that's that's how I continued, all my education.
Peter O'Toole:So so so it's a very different childhood then, at that point? Yes. So can you recall when you were probably around the age of 10, 9, 10, you probably started to think about what you may want to be when you grow up. So before your dad said go into science, what what sort of job did you imagine yourself doing? The first job you can ever remember thinking, oh, I'd like to do that.
Ammasi Periasamy:I always you know, in high school, they asked me to write a essay. The same question, what do you want to be? You know, I wrote, I want to be a scientist. It it it it continued. I mean, it was in my system.
Ammasi Periasamy:I continued, you see my career. I know. I I after my master's degree in physics, I got a job as a demonstrator in the engineering college, and I could. I went and joined in IIT Madras as a PhD student in biomedical engineering. They told me that I have to do, I have to do, masters in engineering too.
Ammasi Periasamy:Because if you go from science to engineering, you have to do 1 more masters, really, to continue with PhD. So I did that. Then again, I got a job after PhD, and again I could. I came to this country. So it's always my motivation is doing something new.
Ammasi Periasamy:Still, I am doing the same thing. All my research and see publication, I always did something new and then move on, advanced using my basic, ideas. And, I moved on for all the time. I always focus on research. Yeah.
Ammasi Periasamy:That's true.
Peter O'Toole:So I'll take you now back to when you're probably 16, 18. You you said you lived in a village, a farming village, itself. It must have been quite a big change going to Madras, which is now a big city. A very large city.
Ammasi Periasamy:Yeah. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:How did you find that culturally? How did you find that change, that transition?
Ammasi Periasamy:Yeah. I know for my home to my home, I was a guest. All the time, high school also, I was not in my home. I was in my uncle's house because there was no high school, in my village. So, I was studying well.
Ammasi Periasamy:So my my uncle took me to his house. So I was going to the little bit of better village, I would say, well established. And I was staying I went to when I was in 7th grade or something like that, to his home and I completed a high school staying in his home. And, then I went to the college. That is where major shift from village side to the college.
Ammasi Periasamy:It is a big town. When they went to the undergraduate degree, At that time, there is a pre university, and then you go for undergraduate degree. I did not feel anything different since I was always away from home. I did not feel like, hey, I am missing them, missing this. I just visit my home whenever, holidays comes and spend some time with my brother and sister and parents and just and relatives.
Ammasi Periasamy:And go since I am studying well and everybody respect me, everybody listens to me, you know, that's the case, always in the village side. So, yes, there is I did not feel much difference. Even if I came to this came to this years, I did not be much difference even in the lab because IIT Madras works exactly like, all the western countries' institutions. Are the EIT faculty members are graduated from, changed from some other country, western countries, things like that. So the working habit is the same as I do here.
Ammasi Periasamy:There is no end. So I always continue my work when I as I was a PhD student.
Peter O'Toole:So so that was the the the work side of it. What about culturally when you came to the US? I I know I've asked many guests who've gone over to the US or US coming to Europe or over to Asia or Australia, wherever it is, how they found the cultural side. The it's just the living side, find the housing, the change in housing, the buying food. I I know some of the UK people who go over to US terribly miss British chocolate because I'm sorry, all you US.
Peter O'Toole:It's just chocolate is so much better than what you're getting to in here. How did you find that those cultural changes when you went over?
Ammasi Periasamy:Well, I am when I was in the high school, high school or undergraduate degree, I was in the, NCC, National Cadet College. There, they will teach you how to cook. Okay? So when I came to this country, I was cooking myself basically Indian food. So with the spicy, everything is available.
Ammasi Periasamy:I did not feel any different that, I am hungry, I don't know how to eat, I am not vegetarian, I can eat anything except cow meat. So I eat everything. So fish and chicken, things like that. So I did not have any problem when I arrived in this country. And, the my postdoctoral adviser was very, very supportive of me, and he made me he made me feel at home.
Ammasi Periasamy:So I was very, very happy. And food food wise, not an issue for me. And adjusting with the people, yes, there was an issue, you know, trying to, you know, in as you know, in India, you give respect to the elders, whatever they say. Even it is wrong, you listen. Sometimes you don't think everybody is honest, and it took me some time to learn, you know.
Ammasi Periasamy:My first actual adviser told me, look at the fingers. All are not equal. Right? Don't think everybody is like you.
Peter O'Toole:So Do you still cook at home? Are you still on the main
Ammasi Periasamy:I still cook home. No. No. I am no problem for me. Still, I am cooking.
Peter O'Toole:Do you are you the main cook?
Ammasi Periasamy:Yes. That's me. Yes?
Peter O'Toole:Yes. Do do you know you're just taking 1 of my other questions that I have later? Ah, okay.
Ammasi Periasamy:Okay. That's fine.
Peter O'Toole:So thinking about you you you came into the US. You've made your name. What drove you to get so involved in SPIE and the conferencing side of things?
Ammasi Periasamy:My first paper was, published in SPIE when I was a graduate student at IIT Madras. So I use that, and whenever I get a chance, and since I am using all optical methods, and the SPE is the idea, I kind of found it is very ideal for me. I used to go for a biophysical society meeting too. Every year, I used to go. Once I started my workshop, it so happens, next to following week, every single society meeting meeting in March.
Ammasi Periasamy:I can organize my workshop only 1st week of March, spring break, no students. I can take the whole floor to do that. So the SPAI meeting, I go whenever I get a chance, but once I joined in University of Virginia, it is kind of warm my own lab and everything. I I make the call. So I used to go every year, and 1 day I was sitting there, I was just presenting my data, even Tony Wilson, conference.
Ammasi Periasamy:I used to do that, microscopy conference. And 1 day I was sitting there, Joe Lokevich, came to me, and he knows, I am running a workshop. I am from University of Virginia. He has a lot of respect for University of Virginia faculty members. I was sitting there.
Ammasi Periasamy:He came to me, and he brought 1 SPA manager or whoever, technical manager or something like that. He's the guy. You ask him to run the multiphonal microscopy conference. So that's how I started. I asked Peter So to join with me, to start a conference.
Ammasi Periasamy:And, Ward Webb was so excited. He was the 1st speaker, keynote speaker, for the conference organizing this. He was so supportive of that. And all the Microsoft company supported the conference, so I was able to run it. So that's how I got involved with the SPAE.
Ammasi Periasamy:I it's a lot of interesting stuff on the technology side. Applying for various applications is, so exciting to me. I attend many sessions. I usually, in addition to my conference, I used to go for selected talks.
Peter O'Toole:What year was it that you started your involvement there?
Ammasi Periasamy:Pardon me?
Peter O'Toole:What year did you start your involvement with SPIE in organizing the multi photon sessions? When when
Ammasi Periasamy:was I think it was 2001.
Peter O'Toole:So that was really when biology started to embrace multivoton.
Ammasi Periasamy:Yeah. They really weren't.
Peter O'Toole:Time that it started to get
Ammasi Periasamy:a bit Yeah. Yeah. 1919 99, they started Bio Rad started marketing this multiphorent microscopy. You know, at 1998, I got NSF grant to build a multiphoner microscopy. At that time, there is no commercial unit, so the federal government gave the money.
Ammasi Periasamy:Then 99, 2000, it became, a multifold arm microscope, a commercialization of Bio Rad. In 2001, I it was very timely. Joe Larkovich asked me. Joe Larkovich asked me because when he started the JB board, Journal of Biomedical Optics, he requested me to be 1 of the editorial board member. That's how he lost me.
Ammasi Periasamy:I joined in the meeting 97. I I remember that 97 or 96, he started the JBL. So he asked me to be a member. I think I joined in 96 96 or 97. So, he knows me well, so that's that's maybe 1 of the reason why he asked me to organize the Multiphore Down Conference in 2001.
Peter O'Toole:Which is now expanding, so I that that includes FLIM and other aspects in the talks that were around it. So to this technology's moved on from that.
Ammasi Periasamy:Yeah. I I included, not only, multi photon microscopic development or applications and also FLIMFrAC FCS, which is 2 photon is used a lot for FLIM. And now we include for the last, 3 or 4 years metabolic imaging, NADH, FAD, and tryptophan, which we are using a 2 foot on microscopy excitation. And also when we when I started, I also include the COS microscopy. Sunny, she came and requested me, hey.
Ammasi Periasamy:Why don't we start a session in the multiphonal microscopy on COS? I said yes. Then it became a 1 day session in my conference. It became from 3 days to 4 days. Then I I told the SPA people you should give him separate conference for cars.
Ammasi Periasamy:Now they are running a separate conference, not in my part of my conference. So this is how all the whichever multi photon involved, the applications was included in my conference. Now we have only FLIM, FCS, and, metabolism. And also I run once a year some special, for example, last year I ran women in multiphonometric microscopy. That became very attractive.
Ammasi Periasamy:They started running news in the SPAE, almost all the journals, And this the next year, going to start on fat film, FCS and metabolic meeting. As a special session, in that I invite some keynote speakers and things like that. I also sometimes invite plenary speakers for Sunday. You know, when Stefan Hell, Eric Betsick, William Miner won the Nobel Prize the following, by November the following next year, January, I invited them to celebrate, multifodal sorry, my celebrate the super resolution microscopy. So they were 3 of them are there.
Ammasi Periasamy:And, next year, also, they asked me to organize the preliminary speakers. On Sunday is always plenary. It's common for everybody. So I invited, a Nobel Prize winner 2023, from MIT, on quantum dots. So he agreed to come.
Ammasi Periasamy:And I have to find another speaker, because they we need at least 2 speakers minimum. So I am still looking for another speaker to invite. Well, I
Peter O'Toole:think you've gone through half my podcast guests. Won't go through them. WWE, Eric. You mentioned Tony. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:Petri Shriller, of course. Obviously, not WhatWeb, but, Petri Shriller from WhatWeb's lab. So Petra, there's a good idea for you.
Ammasi Periasamy:Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:But she's quite inspirational. I'm gonna take you back now. What was your first microscope you ever used? Can you remember?
Ammasi Periasamy:Instead that I built the microscope, buying our parts, everything, The first microscope I used is, Nikon. Okay. Yeah. I built, III at that time in Chapel Hill, I have Olympus. It is a kind of facility, and, we had Olympus, Zeiss, everything.
Ammasi Periasamy:But I used the Nikon to build fluorescence light time imaging microscopy. That's a basic.
Peter O'Toole:So so now you have lots of microscopes because you also have the WM Keck Centre For Imaging. So I have a question on this 1. So you it's the WM Keck Centre For of Imaging or for imaging rather. So this, I presume, is funded from a philanthropist at this point or a foundation sets up in their name?
Ammasi Periasamy:Yeah. That's it. There is a story behind that. I was in Chapel Hill. I developed the fluorescence lifetime imaging microscopy.
Ammasi Periasamy:At that time, there is no lifetime imaging. I've developed, like, for calcium, a single line using gating camera. The gating camera was given by Hema Matze. Free. It's free gating camera.
Ammasi Periasamy:We got 1 money for buying a laser, Neodymium Yawg laser based a dye laser system. I have everything, 2nd harmonic, third harmonic, and dialysis systems. So that is where I built the lifetime imaging system at the times. And then, of course, Hammer Marce, free gave the camera, but they use the idea, to build a street camera. You made a lifetime streak camera.
Ammasi Periasamy:It's all based on from our work on their gating camera. Now gating camera is available 100 megahertz. At that time only 10 kilohertz in the repetition rate. So I was in the chapel then. I got the invitation from here.
Ammasi Periasamy:They told me some, you know, micro some microscopy company told, hey. This guy is good. We're only inviting him to start a microscopy center here. So that's how I came here. The VPR was very, very, interesting person, meaning that he always interested to introduce new techniques, new technology or biological investigations.
Ammasi Periasamy:So so he helped me to get money from the Tech Foundation. It's about $1, 000, 000, at that time, 98. So that's how this center they told me you spend the money as you like. You just name this at that at that time, it started as a central for cellular imaging. Then kick foundation money came in.
Ammasi Periasamy:We started as a Keck Center for cellular imaging. This is how the Keck Center was, founded by money with, from the Kicks Foundation. And using that money, I generated 1, 000, 000 of dollars from NIH and as a, you know, other organizations. This is called the tech center. Now we keep to it.
Ammasi Periasamy:You name it. We have all kinds of microscopy. Not only commercial, I built the microscopy system, 2 photon, mainly 2 photon light and reading system. I built a Tufts system. These are all, custom built system is available.
Ammasi Periasamy:And since I am teaching a microscopy course, the students really enjoy how the custom built microscopy was done, and they wanted to evolve, they learn about it, etcetera. So this is how I started the. Good. Center for cellular imaging and the university was supporting in every aspect of the operation.
Peter O'Toole:Do you still get funding from the Keck Foundation?
Ammasi Periasamy:No. They give only 1 time.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. But but that's
Ammasi Periasamy:Only 1 time.
Peter O'Toole:But it was a big time. But it that's what set it up and got it going, and they Exactly. That's fungus.
Ammasi Periasamy:The Keck Foundation is that's how I that's their motive. They give the money to start something new idea for a particular institution, and then they expect the institution and the investigator should expand. And KIPP Foundation was very, very happy.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. Actually, I don't actually know, I've got to go back. What was the, during your career, what would you say has been the toughest time during your career?
Ammasi Periasamy:The first time in the academic life, always getting grants. Right? That is the toughest time for sure. I faced with, most of the time, that was I consider as the first time, getting money and sometimes fails. And again you have to resubmit and get the money.
Ammasi Periasamy:And running the lab research wise, I was lucky to get many postdoc students very enthusiastic to work with me. And, so I I the first time, I would say, mainly getting grant money, make the people to work, to stay in the lab so that, you know, I never asked anybody to leave, but most of them, you know, they work and then get a job and they go. That's how it works. And most of them work, particularly postdocs works for 6 years. So they, they really helped me a lot to establish the Craig seller.
Ammasi Periasamy:I would say the toughest time is getting
Peter O'Toole:money. Okay. So you didn't get the money. The grant is rotten. When you go home, what do you do to relax?
Peter O'Toole:What do you do to chill out when you get home?
Ammasi Periasamy:I go to the pool. Then? Swimming pool. I go to a swimming pool.
Peter O'Toole:How often do you swim?
Ammasi Periasamy:Yeah. That is that is where I relax, really. Tell you
Peter O'Toole:the truth. How often do you swim? Every day. Every day?
Ammasi Periasamy:Yeah. My my gym is just behind my building. Okay. No. That's
Peter O'Toole:not simple.
Ammasi Periasamy:I I go to the gym. I I tell them 4:30, I leave. My office, if anybody wants to talk to me, I tell them come to the gym. And I spend for 2 hours gym activity and then and then I go for swimming. That's so fast.
Ammasi Periasamy:Yeah. Yeah. You know, use different equipment, at least at least 1 hour on the gym and the 30 minutes for swimming and things like that.
Peter O'Toole:So does that mean you pause at the end to enable people to ask you questions, or do you just put them forwards?
Ammasi Periasamy:It happens. 1 time, 1 of the professor came to me. Hey. The kid center door is not locked. I was assuming.
Ammasi Periasamy:He came, and he's the senior professor, in the biology department. He was sitting there. I wonder why he was waiting for me. I went the day. The tech center door was not locked, and you better watch out.
Ammasi Periasamy:And he said, okay. I'll check on that after he return. So, yeah, usually, they come when I was in the gym. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:And I do have to ask, I'm also a keen swimmer. Are you a front full or breaststroke? Pardon me? Are you freestyle swimming, front crawl, freestyle or breast stroking?
Ammasi Periasamy:I do everything. Not swimming. Freestyle, breaststroke, and everything I do. Backstroke, I mix I mix everything.
Peter O'Toole:Butterfly as well?
Ammasi Periasamy:Butterfly, I have not done. No.
Peter O'Toole:That's that's that's that's stats.
Ammasi Periasamy:I found it a little tough, but, I did not do it. Butterfly. But, breaststrokes, all those things I did except butterfly.
Peter O'Toole:So that's what you do to relax. You have you got any other hobbies outside of that?
Ammasi Periasamy:No hobbies. I don't my my gardening is my hobby when I go home. Oh, that's a hobby. Yeah. All all the vegetables, I mostly do not buy.
Ammasi Periasamy:Yep. It's all from my garden. Pepper, plants, beans, tomatoes, everything.
Peter O'Toole:So if that's what you've got, we've talked about tough times, if not getting a grant, take it out. What about the best times at work? What what has been the best time in your career? If you could relive any moment in your career, what moment would it it be? Or period?
Ammasi Periasamy:Well, the in research, when you get your results successful, you are very, very happy. So that's that's where I always excited whenever things work. You struggle hard. I try a number of ways Well, it worked, and you are so excited. I am I really take my group to the lunch.
Ammasi Periasamy:Let's go. Pepper acceptor. So this kind of, exciting mainly is that, you know, when I was, I would say, when I was very much excited when I did the tryptophan imaging, amino acid. You know, no no imaging was done at that time. Tryptophan emission is in the UV.
Ammasi Periasamy:All the microscope, the tube lens gives only after 400. You don't you don't use the microscopy to do the imaging. So So I was having, at that time, bioreactor 2 photon, MRC 2 1000. So I built myself taking the signal from the below the not this cam, below the objective lens, and then I put the detector, which is UV, lifetime detector. It got the image.
Ammasi Periasamy:So that was very exciting moment for sure. You know? Nobody has done on tryptophan imaging at that time. It is 2012. I did that experiment.
Ammasi Periasamy:That's how we started involving metabolic imaging, after that.
Peter O'Toole:That's a good standout, mate. I was gonna ask if you could pick out any 1 standout result, and you've you've just picked that out quite nicely.
Ammasi Periasamy:Yeah. Recently recently, I have a completely new invention on the biopsy screening. Biopsy tissue screening, cancer tissue or any tissue, they use the grading using gliason. Right? Gliason grading.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. The prosthetic
Ammasi Periasamy:require tissue tissue development, staining, and everything. But lifetime is a fingerprint of the molecule. Right? So at the molecular level, you can detect whether it is a normal cell or cancer cell. The cancer cell lifetime decreases.
Ammasi Periasamy:So that gave me an idea that we can detect urine without staining using the NADH imaging. No staining, you just use the NADH imaging. Auto fluorescence, use the 2 photon excitation, and, you can easily the retaining staining says normal, but our lifetime technique says there is a lot of cancer cells. So now it is the US patent. You know, patent that I am working with the company, to build the clinical system to test in the clinical area.
Ammasi Periasamy:That is really after working so many years, I felt like, yeah, this is something I am contributing to the society. This is yearly detection, not only yearly detection, it's a better method. You just take the biopsy tissue, put it on the scanner, and use the machine learning software, it spits out the data, grading techniques. So that is very exciting for me. This is very recent 1.
Peter O'Toole:It's interesting you say about the machine learning. We've been looking at similar strategies, not not using multi photon, but machine learning for learning more about the samples that are otherwise not easy to extract information. How big do you think machine learning is going to be and AI part of that, going forward in microscopy? Just just general biological research.
Ammasi Periasamy:Well, if you want to use the machine learning, you should have a large number of data, to do that data analysis. You know, I always say this artificial intelligence is a black box. We are creating a software to do what is necessary for us. So, the huge number of data, thousands of data data points, you know, if you take a 512 by 512 pixels image, if you wanted to take each pixel, gives the lifetime distribution, so you get huge number of data points if you wanted to predict statistically. This is a very good machine learning approach.
Ammasi Periasamy:It's a very good approach if you get it within seconds. For example, we submitted a paper, recently in the scientific reports I revised and resubmitted, 3 weeks ago. That paper is focused on the drug cellular response. Our ordinary method, data analysis, showed it takes 60 seconds, drug response. But when we add and put all the data points in the machine learning software, it says you see the direct response within 15 seconds, not 60 seconds.
Ammasi Periasamy:So the data crunching data analysis, the machine learning approach is really, really useful. This happens. Yeah. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:I think once AI can start telling us what the app features are, that'll be even more useful. As you say, at the moment, most AI is just a black box. But once it can actually extract information, tell us what it's extracting, tell us what it's found, because that at the moment is is obviously a missing point. Flow cytometry has a lot around the there's a few instruments now based around machine learning and AI. Mhmm.
Peter O'Toole:But it's a leap of faith when it's not telling you what features it's identifying to identify subpopulations, for example. I think that's, as you rightly say, as you've been going with the Gleason grading, is by using your machine learning, it it's informative, and you've got confidence in you you know what you're extracting. You know what features. It makes sense. It'll be interesting to see where it goes.
Ammasi Periasamy:Yeah. It's a yeah. It is a interesting discussion always on the machine learning approach. As I always say, it is a black box. The only thing we are we wrote we write the software to do incorporate all these you follow their instructions methodology, how to input the data in their, algorithm.
Ammasi Periasamy:And, then it puts out the data. And your question is, how do you believe it, whether that data is right or wrong? We have a person who does the job. His name is, Hostwar Rabi. He he's retired from the pharmaceutical company Bayer, and, he has been work working with me for a long time.
Ammasi Periasamy:And, he likes the numbers, so he don't believe the software. He don't believe the machine learning. He does it himself, calculate, and comes out and say, yeah, I believe it now. It gives me the same results, what the machine learning is giving me. So, yes, it is difficult to say, pinpoint, how the machine learning is works, but you are always looking at the output results whether it is correct or not correct.
Peter O'Toole:So it's interesting how you've you've picked out the the lack of trust and the the the building of that trust. And, actually, 1 of my questions I was going to ask you, in those early days of Multiphoton, how and think about when the first Multiphoton laser came out and first being used, how difficult was it to get acceptance of that as a technique in the life science community?
Ammasi Periasamy:That's a great question. Yes. It was a tough time. I built myself as I mentioned to you with the NS of money. At that time, there is no commercial system.
Ammasi Periasamy:This is the only multi photon system we had in the university. So they wanna do calcium imaging using Indovalent and other applications such as FRAT and Lifetime, etcetera. So, it is even in Lifetime Imaging, it is difficult to convince the biologist how to interpret the data. So that's that's where the whole issue is comes in the picture, which I am interacting with the biological biologist a lot, number of applications, cell biology, neurobiology, developmental biology, you name it. Everybody comes here and asks me, how can I do this?
Ammasi Periasamy:And I do explain in length how to do that. And, if the students comes, ask them to take my class. I will explain more in detail and train you in the microscopy how to do the calcium imaging in neurons or in cells or anything, development of biology, embryos, yes, it is, if you do not convince them that the microscopy technique is useful for their investigation, seeing is believing. So you should see it. And I work with them, or my staff will work with them to make sure that they see the right results, then they are excited.
Ammasi Periasamy:And they do see some people are publishing data within their world science field, and why not why not I? So I told them, well, okay, come on in. We will figure it out and set up the system and make sure you get the right results. That's how you can motivate the biologists to use the microscopy system. And you have, for example, for a fact, I have to demonstrate.
Ammasi Periasamy:I have to publish. Then 1 day, the priority still come. Okay. I will spend my time doing shred. If you do not yeah.
Ammasi Periasamy:Go ahead.
Peter O'Toole:No. I was gonna say, actually, sir, thank you for many of us because we didn't have to do that because when we started doing frets, it was still and fret goes back to the 70. Biochemical FRET goes back way back, but imaging FRETs. A lot of those methods were not they were very challenging on a microscope back in the nineties. It wasn't really until the the emergence of the improvement of piezo controls, the AOMs in microscopes that that enabled us to to really move forward in confocal site and make it available to the masses.
Peter O'Toole:But it's because of that prior work that yourselves have helped develop that meant actually users were more willing to accept it straight away. So, you know, it's made life a lot easier for biologists to trust it. And maybe that's where machine learning will go in the future. I have some quick fire questions for you. Okay.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. So are you an early bird or night owl?
Ammasi Periasamy:Night owl.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. PC or Mac? PC. McDonald's or Burger King?
Ammasi Periasamy:Pardon me?
Peter O'Toole:McDonald's or Burger King?
Ammasi Periasamy:I don't I don't go at all. Apparently, I go McDonald's. Where is that? If I travel.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. If you're forced to. Coffee or tea? Tea. Beer or wine?
Ammasi Periasamy:I drink only wine. So this is my tea.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. Which looks like beer in that 1?
Ammasi Periasamy:Green green tea.
Peter O'Toole:So you drink white red or white wine?
Ammasi Periasamy:Red.
Peter O'Toole:Chocolate or cheese?
Ammasi Periasamy:Chocolate. I I don't I don't eat dairy product that much.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. Okay. Dark chocolate rather than milk chocolate then?
Ammasi Periasamy:Dark chocolate. Yep. Daily daily 1 piece.
Peter O'Toole:If you were to cook any what is your you said you cook. What is your signature dish? What's your favorite food to cook? Chicken. Chicken what though?
Ammasi Periasamy:Chicken with spicy. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:Just spicy chicken with rice? With
Ammasi Periasamy:With rice, yes, with rice.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. What is your least favorite food to eat?
Ammasi Periasamy:Least favorite food? I don't know. I I wanna cook what I like.
Peter O'Toole:Please say, so if you were to if you were go to Phong and you were taken out for a dinner and you didn't get to choose a menu, it was just the menu is going to be given to you, you have no choice, what is the worst food that someone could put in front of you and you go oh, no?
Ammasi Periasamy:What what our cheese involved. It is. I don't like it. Yeah. Yeah.
Ammasi Periasamy:Okay. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:TV or book?
Ammasi Periasamy:I watch TV news. Yes.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. So did you watch any trashy TV? I remember asking Richard Henderson this and he said
Ammasi Periasamy:No mainly mainly news. News. People say turn on news, that's it, I don't watch TV much.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. Do you have a favourite film?
Ammasi Periasamy:I watched only movies, comedy movies, not serious drama or anything. Whatever related to comedy, I really watch. Even in the flight, I watch only comedy.
Peter O'Toole:Do you have a favorite 1?
Ammasi Periasamy:Probably don't have many things I can say. I I really like, the guy here. What is his name? I forgot. The 3's company not 3's company.
Ammasi Periasamy:The, I really the name is not coming to me. I was surprised.
Peter O'Toole:I'm no good at actors' names. I also like comedy films, but don't ask me who the actors are. I I have to watch films again a second time because I forget what happens.
Ammasi Periasamy:Yeah. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:In a moment, I'm not
Ammasi Periasamy:I I watch a basketball game for sure. And, you you know, I watch the finals just last night. Dallas Mavericks versus Boston Celtics. So I usually watch basketball game So
Peter O'Toole:It's like, do you support a team?
Ammasi Periasamy:I like Los Angeles Lakers. I was watching for Magic Johnson for a long a long time. Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. And, after that, I did not watch that much game, but I watched the finals.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. And you say you don't read books or not not often?
Ammasi Periasamy:I don't have time to read the research article. I love to read research article or or or something I read a book about the scientists, what they did. You know, for example, Einstein and, all those famous people, born in some you name it. All those historical their background, how they became a scientist. I was always interested to read those kind of books for sure.
Ammasi Periasamy:I have a number of books in my home like that. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:Star Wars or Star Trek?
Ammasi Periasamy:I did not watch those movies. Sorry.
Peter O'Toole:India or the US?
Ammasi Periasamy:Well, I love working here. But, you know, you miss your family and friends. So I go every year to India. I am teaching over there, actually. Now, no.
Ammasi Periasamy:They cannot come for my friend workshop. It's a lot of money. Yep. We have to spend. Now they told me, you come here.
Ammasi Periasamy:We pay you a ticket. You come here and teach us. So, I started last year, and this year also I am going. So IIT Madras are organizing the flood workshop, and I go there and, of course, visit. A lot of my friends are there still.
Ammasi Periasamy:And, you know, now India is like a foreign country for me. I can get things done here in many never have been there in India because, I don't know anybody. So
Peter O'Toole:So how do you find the cultural change now going from the US back to India?
Ammasi Periasamy:At least, yeah, that's usually I go. I don't go in summertime. I go only in November or December. It is it is, yeah, hot. Even even when I was there, I was not I did not go outside at all.
Ammasi Periasamy:My room is always air conditioned in the lab, so I always stay there. IIT Madras is close to the ocean beach. Evening time, I go out. Until then, I stay in my lab. I I work hard, you know, I completed my PhD degree within 3 years.
Ammasi Periasamy:I mean, thesis and everything in the within 3 years. So, I work hard. I am continuing to work still the same way. Now all the time I work. When you retire,
Peter O'Toole:will you carry on working?
Ammasi Periasamy:I don't know what to do. I will retire. I don't know when I retire. Everybody asking me a question. But I am still working like a student.
Ammasi Periasamy:So, I don't know. No idea.
Peter O'Toole:Impression of someone who's going to just walk away 1 day and do something else. You don't give me that impression at all.
Ammasi Periasamy:I did not have I did not think about it. And, yeah, if you think 1 day you wanted to walk away, you would be wondering what to do next without a plan. Usually, my personality is that without a plan, I will not step out of my home. Even if I travel or anything, I know ABCD, what I am doing every day. So with 3 day plan, I never step out of my home even where I travel.
Ammasi Periasamy:I traveled in many countries, conferences, meeting, invited talk, and etcetera. I always planned everything so that my travel will be smooth, the same way everything even when I come to work, what I am going to do today? So that's how I work. So I really do not have idea what I do after my retirement. As you know, here, nobody asks you to retire.
Ammasi Periasamy:You know? He or she can work as long as you want. So I am just I am just continuing. So far I did not think about
Peter O'Toole:it. 1 last part 1 last quick question. What's your favorite color?
Ammasi Periasamy:Blue. Blue and white.
Peter O'Toole:See I thought you might have said Tryptophan UV or Far Red.
Ammasi Periasamy:It's still good daily. Yeah. Well,
Peter O'Toole:you could've said anything with a 2.2 nanosecond lifetime. It would've fit as well. Yeah. We talked about inspirations. Finally, sweet.
Peter O'Toole:We are coming up, within 5 minutes of the app. Do you have any regrets in your career?
Ammasi Periasamy:I did not see any regret. I would say that, my family complained that I am spending a lot of time at work. So, probably, I should have, spent more time with them. And, you know, when you think that you are to spend your son, he's gone. So so that's
Peter O'Toole:get that.
Ammasi Periasamy:Pardon me?
Peter O'Toole:Do you regret spending that much time at work?
Ammasi Periasamy:Yeah. Regret not spending much time at work. No.
Peter O'Toole:Do you regret spending that much time at work and not seeing so much of your family? Or actually, did have you justified that to yourself that actually, no. This was the right thing?
Ammasi Periasamy:Well, you know, 1 of my senior, told me that, you know, if you do what you love, you love both your family and your work, but, yeah, you are to balance the time for both, for sure. That's what I am doing, try to do, but more time for sure at work.
Peter O'Toole:And the family's following sort of in your footsteps have all gone scientific. They've all gone on to academia. So they've they've been inspired argue with Yeah.
Ammasi Periasamy:That is true. They follow me too. Yeah. So they had seen that how much hard I am working to achieve anything. And, you know, when I when I when I edited my first book, my daughter was in the high school.
Ammasi Periasamy:She edited my, preface for the book, English. Mhmm. Oh, your English is not good. You know? So they enjoy what I am doing, and no no question about it.
Peter O'Toole:Well, I I didn't ask. I asked what you want to be when you were young. It was you were very early driven to be a scientist. Obviously, you went to answer science and physics and to answer the biological questions using your physics, to develop technologies to help address problems and critically looking at what you're doing with cancer now making quite a fundamental impact. But if you could sample any job for a day or a week, any other type of job in the world, what type of job would you like to experience?
Peter O'Toole:Not not as a career, just as a day or a week to know what it's like to be that type of career or that type of person.
Ammasi Periasamy:Well, if you like me to say, I say I would like to do farming.
Peter O'Toole:You like farming?
Ammasi Periasamy:Yeah, I came from the farming. I know all the farming. I worked once my father was sick for 6 months. The whole crap, I did about 20 acres of land I was only maintaining and also going to the college. So coming every week and trying to manage that, my father cannot do that at the time.
Ammasi Periasamy:So at that time, I learned a lot. I love love forming, but, you know, here I am not doing. If we go back, still my lands are there, my brother is taking care of it. But, you know, that's a very good point. I am I am still thinking just to go back after retirement.
Peter O'Toole:That's cool. So so you must have enjoyed that time even though it sounds really stressful on a personal level and just a learning level and educational and work level that must have been very intense but it sounds like you actually that was good memories.
Ammasi Periasamy:Yes. Because of the young age, I involved in forming a lot. When I was an undergraduate student, I still love it, what I did. Yes. Maybe that's a good idea.
Ammasi Periasamy:I should go back After retirement, I probably enjoy.
Peter O'Toole:I think I've often compared scientists to farmers and the way that we research different feel different we we have different crops in different fields and rotate them around to be successful. And you have your main crop and try to do very similar analogies, and probably similar work ethic that it it doesn't stop. It's all year round.
Ammasi Periasamy:Yes. Yes. Yes. I agree with you.
Peter O'Toole:And, Massey, we are up to the hour. So So I'm gonna say thank you very much for chatting to us today and sharing so much about your childhood as well, which has been amazing to learn. It's something that you can't really read about. Thank you everyone for watching, listening. Please do subscribe to whichever channel you're listening this to.
Peter O'Toole:And you've heard I'm actually talking about Stefan Haunter, Weeemirna, Eric Betsey, Tony Wilson, all previous guests on here. So go back and listen to the back half. I've got Amassie. Thank you so much from the scientific community as well for everything you've done in developing the technologies but also delivering the content and the and the courses in the past as well around FREDS and contributing through the listserv, answering questions and helping people across the world. Really fast responses.
Peter O'Toole:We've been really helpful to us all. So, Masih, thank you very much.
Ammasi Periasamy:Thank you. I enjoy in training others what I learned. That's that's that's why I love this job.
Intro/Outro:Thank you for listening to The Microscopists, a Bite Size Bio podcast sponsored by Zeiss Microscopy. To view all audio and video recordings from this series, please visit bitesizebiodot comforward/v dashmicroscopists.
