Ilaria Testa (Karolinska Institutet Science Park)
Welcome to The Microscopists, a bite sized bio podcast hosted by Peter O'Toole, sponsored microscopists
Peter O'Toole:Today on the microscopists, I'm joined by Ilaria Testa who tells us why she thinks delegation is a fundamental skill for any senior scientist.
Ilaria Testa:I had a tendency to be very much on top of many things and try to do things by myself, which is not sustainable in the long term, but is also not not good for your team member because you have to give them space to develop the wrong person, wrong scientist.
Peter O'Toole:She talks about growing from her personal and professional struggles.
Ilaria Testa:I need to sort of see what, like, you know, get through the struggle, to touch the documents, say, like, I'm not probably real. But, to to to then try to get a better version of myself.
Peter O'Toole:And why she thinks feedback on grant applications good or bad is critical.
Ilaria Testa:The the problem is that in many grants you don't receive feedback. And, I think this is, this is a real pity because it doesn't give you the possibility to get better.
Peter O'Toole:All in this episode of The Microstrophists. Hi. Welcome to The Microstrophists. I'm Peter Atul from the University of York. And today, I'm joined by Laria Testa from Stockholm.
Peter O'Toole:Laria,
Ilaria Testa:how are
Peter O'Toole:you today?
Ilaria Testa:Hello. I'm good. Hi. Hi, Pete. So the first thing I have to
Peter O'Toole:say is congratulations. You're a mom.
Ilaria Testa:Yes. I'm a mom for the 2nd time.
Peter O'Toole:And how long ago was this?
Ilaria Testa:Yeah. 4 weeks ago.
Peter O'Toole:4 weeks ago. Thank you so much for agreeing to talk today. And how's it going?
Ilaria Testa:Yeah. It's going well. It works. A lot of sleepless night, but, somehow you adapt to that. So
Peter O'Toole:How old is your first?
Ilaria Testa:A 2a half.
Peter O'Toole:2a half. And and how are they finding it?
Ilaria Testa:Yeah. That that's probably the most challenging part. You know, she's excited, which always can come with also some, you know, dangerous situation because you want to interact with the small one. But, yeah, so far so good. We try to manage them.
Ilaria Testa:You know?
Peter O'Toole:And how are you finding the change of having 1 child, which is hard work, to having 2 children, which is a lot more intense?
Ilaria Testa:I I guess, you know, when they're that small I mean, apart from the sleepless night, they they they they do sleep a lot overall. So in a way, it's quite easy to adapt and and to find time also for the other. It's it's also important, of course, to share responsibility and and time with your partner. I'm very lucky on that sense. So, it's it's it's you know, we try to juggle all all the things we all the time we have, but that's that's how it's going.
Ilaria Testa:Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:What is your partner to?
Ilaria Testa:He's also a scientist.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. Yeah. Also Stockholm?
Ilaria Testa:Also Stockholm is a he's a neuroscientist. Yeah. So we were close by. He's a. I'm with Cilac Labs.
Ilaria Testa:So
Peter O'Toole:Does he do any imaging?
Ilaria Testa:Yes. Sometime. Yeah. No. He he he's more on the molecular side, but use use microscope as a tool for in situ sequencing and this kind of thing.
Ilaria Testa:So, think it's gonna be easy.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. That's not
Ilaria Testa:what you're doing, these throughput.
Peter O'Toole:I think it's one of the easy yeah. That's not what you're doing, is throughput.
Ilaria Testa:No. At least not yet. They're not but, yeah.
Peter O'Toole:And how much time are you gonna take off? Are you taking any time off? I know you got 2 children, or you or you take are you taking some time off, and how long are you taking off if you are?
Ilaria Testa:So so what we did for we we would try to do the same that we did for with the first one. So we tried to do sort of 5050, like, a few days, 1 and the other, so to share, with him. I I never actually left for a long period of time. I think it's very hard with our job, so I don't plan to do it, also this time, but sort of divide the week between, between ourselves so that we can always, you know, check-in and do the the important things.
Peter O'Toole:Actually, it's a, I think, a good question. Do you wish you had a job that you could put aside, or, actually, do you enjoy your job and, actually, you wanna keep that engagement anyway?
Ilaria Testa:No. That's the second one for sure. I mean, we could. Right? I mean, the order of the system that we have here, you could just, you know, check out and and and come back in a year or even in a year and a half later, but, I would die.
Ilaria Testa:It it would happen to me. I mean, I don't know. There are people that can do can do it. For me, it's, like, so natural and so important to keep discussing, you know, with students, think about the project. I can't just do it.
Ilaria Testa:I can't just run away. You know? I would become insane.
Peter O'Toole:So, Tito, actually, I'm not gonna call it your job because it's not a job. I I'm sensing you don't see it as a job. Is your work your hobby and your sport?
Ilaria Testa:Yeah. In a way. I mean, I I I I yeah. So I I really enjoy what I do. I don't feel that I have to do it.
Ilaria Testa:I mean, of course, there are always side of your job that you don't like like to do, and, I mean, administrative duties are not my favorite. But but the old scientific discussion, this is, I think, a innate part of, I would say, my personality. So I I I I I can I can, yes? In that sense, this is really part of who I am. So I I I love to do it, and and I would feel, impaired without it.
Ilaria Testa:But I I do love also doing other things. It's not that, you know, I I need to do experiment day and night.
Peter O'Toole:So so what other hobbies do you have?
Ilaria Testa:I mean, over the year, I think I explore many things. I grew up in close by Genova, maybe is known for some conference. Right? So it's a a seat like, a small town on the sea and, close by Genova. And then, of course, by being close to the sea, you, I I practice.
Ilaria Testa:I enjoy a lot of water sport, like, you know, diving, snorkeling, and, kayaking, and so on. But, you know, to follow your scientific path, sometimes you need to relocate and and and, going north and north, I kind of shift my, enthusiasm from enthusiasm from water to to snow. So lately, we practiced a lot of, cross country skiing.
Peter O'Toole:And you actually sent a picture of you cross skiing, I presume.
Ilaria Testa:Oh, yeah. Yeah. There it is. Yeah. That was one of the latest hobbies that that we enjoy doing.
Ilaria Testa:And it's fantastic because, you know, you are outdoor, and you can explore nice landscape covered with snow, as you can see. You keep your sun warm because you need to do a lot of work out. So it's
Peter O'Toole:So all your all your hobbies are quite physical. So how important is fitness to you?
Ilaria Testa:You? I think it's good for your mind. It's good to, zoom out and, and and, relax and see things in a different way. So for me, like, being outdoor is really, really important.
Peter O'Toole:So forget about you said you you you started in Genoa and then gradually moved north. So your math you did a degree, your masters. What was what subject was that, and was that in Genoa?
Ilaria Testa:It was in Genoa. It was physics. So yeah. So it was, I mean, general physics and then theoretical physics, the last 2 years. That was, I mean, was was in high in Genova.
Ilaria Testa:I mean, a lot of people were working also at CERN. So so there was also a lot of nuclear physics and so on. And that was actually like, theoretical physics was the the reason why I I I studied physics, at the beginning. So when I was in high school, I remember I had this very exciting math professor, Li, Livia, and and she was always talking. I mean, she couldn't teach quantum mechanics, of course, but she was always talking about that, like this mysterious world, governed by rules so different from classic physics.
Ilaria Testa:And, like, all this mystery really excite me because, I said, like, how is it possible that a world like that exist? And, so I remember that we like, a big part of my motivation. Of course, then I always like and enjoy math and physics. Right? So it was topic that were coming kind of natural to me.
Ilaria Testa:And and and that's why I moved, so I started physics. Yeah. I was actually a very bad experimentalist. I was I was so much better in in in theory.
Peter O'Toole:So you said that it came natural to you. The math and physics came natural to you. Were your parents mathematicians or physicists?
Ilaria Testa:No. Not at all. Not at all. No. I didn't I didn't even actually knew what research was at the time.
Ilaria Testa:In fact, I I mean, I didn't I didn't want to be a researcher. I didn't know what was it. I mean, I of course, you know about scientists, but, I I didn't know about the actual job of a researcher. I I wanted to be a medical doctor at that time. That's what I, you know, I was more intuitive to understand.
Peter O'Toole:So what did your parents do? What were they?
Ilaria Testa:Oh, also, my my my mom was a teacher, elementary school teacher, and and, and my dad has a small shop. Yes.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. So so it was very different to go but what did they think about you going to study physics? That's obviously very different.
Ilaria Testa:They love it. So they they always look up, you know, to knowledge. And and the one thing they, they they said, I mean, you know, if you if you study physics, you know, that sound sound really smart, but also it seems that open up a lot of opportunities, for, you know, many potential jobs, and and they were right. So but they never, you know, they never forced me to do anything like that. Follow what you like.
Ilaria Testa:I mean, at the end, you end up somehow doing that well. So if if you feel like doing physics, go for it.
Peter O'Toole:So you said your mom was a elementary teacher. If you take do was she did she ever teach you? Were you ever at the same school?
Ilaria Testa:No. No. No.
Peter O'Toole:No. You never had that awkwardness?
Ilaria Testa:No. No. That that was good.
Peter O'Toole:So we've started a bit earlier than usually I'd ask this question, but can you remember the very first job that you wanted to do probably when you were still in elementary school, way back?
Ilaria Testa:Yeah. Yeah. So I wanted to be a doctor. I wanted to be a medical doctor. I I I don't know.
Ilaria Testa:I guess, probably from on one hand, I thought it was so cool to help people, and, I always heard the story of doctors traveling to Africa and, you know, doing like, helping people in need. And I found that, like, with rural tools, and I thought that that would be so, so cool. And on the other hand, I guess I was, you know, always interested in knowing how things in our in our body work. There were I remember animation that I were looking looking at them as a kid that were very interesting. And, maybe the second part is what then pushed me to biophysics later on or to life science.
Ilaria Testa:But yeah.
Peter O'Toole:So so why did you give up on the medical side?
Ilaria Testa:Because I discovered physics and math. And it was
Peter O'Toole:It was the passion of physics that took over, and that's why
Ilaria Testa:Yeah. Yeah. And and I really like solving problem. And I'm so glad I'm so glad I did it because, you know, I I think I'm much better in, in abstract thinking or deriving concept of first principle rather than memorizing terms of condition, which I think is important for for a doctor. I mean, big respect for those who can, but this is not my thing.
Peter O'Toole:No. It's quite interesting, isn't it? I know I've said I've said this on previous record in previous interviews that doctors, Greg, they actually ultimately, they use the tools that you invent to diagnose, and they use the drugs that we invent to prescribe. They just have to look at the patient, use our tools to diagnose, and prescribe what we're doing. Who's most who's more influential?
Peter O'Toole:Who's more important?
Ilaria Testa:See, you're. I'm biased. So
Peter O'Toole:So when you went into Genoa, did I am I right that you went into Albie's lab, Alberto Dasperos?
Ilaria Testa:Yeah. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:So is that your first microscopy?
Ilaria Testa:Yes. He was actually also teaching the microscopy course. So I kind of arrived there the last moment. I said, oh, can I join this course? I didn't subscribe.
Ilaria Testa:Subscribe. He was like, okay. You know, I'll be he's always find a way. So he, so eventually, I could, I I started following this course was on microscopy metals and biophysics, so different type of microscopy. And, I remember still now that one of the task was actually looking at at single molecule single Rodamine molecule on the cover glass.
Ilaria Testa:I mean, he wanted to do that with 2 photon, which was very hard, but, you know, we were characterizing the sample with the, wide film microscopy. And then I see this tiny spot, and and and and I think, like, this is a molecule. So this is a single molecule. You know? And it just blow my mind.
Ilaria Testa:It as physicists, like, you're used to study that in a vertical way, like states and diagram, and then and then you look at that, and it's popping up. I I thought that that was, you know, fantastic way to to visualize data or a system. Like yeah.
Peter O'Toole:So after Albie, who who's a pretty big name what what was Albie like to work for?
Ilaria Testa:Albi, Albi, you know, is really excited about science. So working with him was really fun. He he create this group of very young scientists. We're all PhD students. Most of the time, you know, I was in the lab.
Ilaria Testa:So we he really, like, focused a lot on building teamwork. And and the motivation and approach to science, I mean, that's, what impacted me, a lot at that time. Like, you know, there is this open question. Let's solve it. Like, you know, this enthusiasm, on problem solving.
Ilaria Testa:Yes.
Peter O'Toole:That's really cool to hear. So Octavalby, who's a pretty big name, you then went to Max Planck?
Ilaria Testa:Yeah. Yeah. With this
Peter O'Toole:Yes. Declan HellsLab?
Ilaria Testa:I went to Stefan. Yes. Yes. Hello, Melissa. This is this is quite
Peter O'Toole:you've got a buck have you got a bucket list of people who you wanna work and now now you've got your own group collaborate with? Is this a bucket list? I've done Alby. I've done Stefan. Who who next?
Ilaria Testa:No. Not really. It was always like a so, yeah, how do you say, like, that, like, happened, I would say, not by chance, but almost. Right? So so, as I said, like, I met Albie because at the very last moment and the very last time to, you know, be able to subscribe for this course, And then and then a lot of things since then developed.
Ilaria Testa:And then and then for Stefan, I mean, it was actually Albie that invited him, to the Italian Biophysical Society sort of a conference. And, you know, at the time, I was like, oh, this guy might win the Nobel Prize at some point, and he was presenting one of the few data, the first data on, 3 d stat. And so I remember approach approaching him, like, after the talk and, like, this big name and asking, you know, a few questions. Like, how do you choose the stat wavelength and things like that. And and he was so nice.
Ilaria Testa:He was like I was a tiny student. I was even not graduated yet. Like, I didn't get my master degree yet. And he would, you know, stop and sit there and and, like, try to explain me how the pattern looked like and how how they do experimentally to to choose the right wavelength. So I thought it was, like, nice to talk to him.
Ilaria Testa:And, I remember at that time saying, you know, it would be, like, a dream to join your lab or things like that, and and eventually, he made that happen. So in fact, first, I I joined his lab as an exchange student for for a short time, and then and then I went back as a postdoc. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:Tip, actually, to sort of get that time in the lab. And then, I guess, they get to look at you as well and think, oh, yeah. We wanna keep. We wanna get back. And so generate opportunities through that route as well.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. You now got your own group. How difficult you've now got your own group. How difficult was it stepping out from Stefan's lab into your own lab? How daunting was it?
Ilaria Testa:Oh, I think, you know, like, mainly transition, are exciting, and comes with a lot of, motivation and and and, will. But it's also difficult because, you change you know, you you go in a new country. It's a new system that I didn't know before, And, it's also new new responsibilities, as I say, you know, administrative duties, but also you're responsible for the people. And and and and so there is a lot of that. There is a lot of time management and delegation to learn, and and and this is certainly not easy.
Ilaria Testa:So at the beginning, I I remember feeling excited, but also kind of alone in a way in your, in your decision, in in your learning, curve. But, yeah, eventually, I'm happy that it went that way because if you get a lot of guidance, it also affect your your independence or or your way of thinking. And then, you know, being there on your own, it really, like, help you build the things that you want to build, create and live with the value you you wanna have. And, and that was really important to me, like, as a growth also.
Peter O'Toole:Have you again, have you made any mistakes? Do you look back and think, oh, that really wasn't me. I I shouldn't have done it that way. I should've changed it, and you change and reflect, or has it been super smooth?
Ilaria Testa:No. Of course. You always make mistake. Right? And and and and, I think at least to me, the point is not not making mistake, but, like, to rethink or or after that and get the chance to, you know, make things then right.
Ilaria Testa:But but definitely I mean, especially at the beginning there, I had the tendency to be, very much on top of many things and try to do things by myself, which is not sustainable in the long term, but it's also not not good for your team member because you have to give them space to develop their own person, their own scientist. So so this probably, like, yeah, should have been done better. But yes. Now, anyway, as I said, having probably, like, family and other services, it help also with delegation. And, how long did it
Peter O'Toole:take to learn the art of delegation and actually passing on responsibility and not micromanaging those projects and not being too involved to give people their space. How long do you think it took to develop those skills? It's not easy.
Ilaria Testa:I think I think maybe a year or 2. I think in the moment that I got to know the team so, like, better than than, you know, they we get to know each other and and having also, you know, students that have learned the first sort of in needed skills, and they start to grow also themselves. So you start trusting them more. So I would say a year or 2 when
Peter O'Toole:Okay. That that's pretty fast, which is impressive. Do you get frustrated, annoyed, angry, disappointed if when you delegate it, so it was someone's taken out and they do it wrong.
Ilaria Testa:It it happened at the beginning, right, in the learning phase. But then but then, again, you start trusting and you and you you you you challenge yourself a little bit, and then you also start seeing that things can be done in a different way. And there is sometimes even if it takes longer time has other benefit, or it can bring in new way of thinking of, the the problem or even, like, solving some technical details. I I mean, sometimes you feel frustrated when you know it's going to a dead end and you want to have for it, but it's also okay if that doesn't take that long time to let that happen, and that, I already discussed. But disappointed, I mean, very rarely with the person.
Ilaria Testa:I think more maybe if, I see that that would cause the lack of motivation overall because, you know, then there would be a delay in getting a positive result and things like that. And I think this is always, a little frustrating. But
Peter O'Toole:I think it's important people make mistakes. Yeah. Yeah. I think you have to learn. So you send me a picture of your lab.
Peter O'Toole:While I'm talking about your lab.
Ilaria Testa:Yeah. You know, I've
Peter O'Toole:only just looked it's huge. How many people have you got in your lab?
Ilaria Testa:Yeah. So so we've looked away within 10 15. I think that was a time where there were a few of the first generation of which it is still being in the lab as positive for for some times and the new one coming. So we are 2 or 3 less now, but, I mean, more or less.
Peter O'Toole:It's still really large. How quickly did that build up to that number of
Ilaria Testa:team? Not that fast. Or at least I remember, like, in the 1st 2, 3 years, we were, like, you know, between 24. And, so it took it took some times, but then, eventually, like, it it it it it increased. And I would say in the last years that, you know, we passed the number 10.
Ilaria Testa:But we have been, you know, gradual. Like, in in I remember the first two, 4 years, we were, like, between 2 5, and then, eventually, it it it increased. But I I always try to not have it all in once. Even if sometimes, you know, you have to because you get this grant, but but but I kind of manage always to get only few new person. Only thing couple, but always a few new person at the time.
Peter O'Toole:How do you actually so actually, I have 2 things. Firstly, for the listener or viewer, is this thing? How long have you been at Stockholm? How long have you been in your position?
Ilaria Testa:Almost 10 years. I mean, I started, 2015.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. So so it's not that long. Not really. And you and your second child, you've been there for 9 years, you've grown a team up to 15. That's quite a stellar successful path, isn't it?
Ilaria Testa:I do like it. It's it's
Peter O'Toole:As as everyone says, you have to create your own luck. So how how many But but we know you do stuff out of work as well, so it's not all work. How do you is it
Ilaria Testa:I used to.
Peter O'Toole:Oh, no. Come on. You said you're into Noah. You were a stupid snorke diving. You were kayaking.
Peter O'Toole:You got up. You're
Ilaria Testa:Yeah. Before babies. Right? Before babies. And then no.
Ilaria Testa:It's it's it's fun.
Peter O'Toole:So how how much how difficult have you found it getting funds? You must have had grants rejected. Please have had a grant rejected.
Ilaria Testa:That that's the majority. Right?
Peter O'Toole:Okay. That'll be good for people to listen. Because you're thinking, oh, yes. But it's just with your success after success after success. So what would you say your success rate is?
Ilaria Testa:Oh, maybe 30%.
Peter O'Toole:That's pretty good. Well, excellent. How so when you what is the feeling when you got your grand success? What is the initial feeling?
Ilaria Testa:This. It's like yeah.
Peter O'Toole:Just a big smile.
Ilaria Testa:Just a big smile. Right? It's it's a,
Peter O'Toole:How long did it last? But you're always smiling. But how long does that from the grand smile, how long does that last?
Ilaria Testa:I mean, as long as the grand is last. Oh,
Peter O'Toole:wow. I wish I could be more like you. I I tell you, as soon as I've got the grants, I think within probably within an hour or 2, my head is turned into, now I've got to fund the invite member of staff. We've got to make deliver this, They're head straight onto the serious stuff. And, yeah, maybe don't take enough time to celebrate the wins.
Peter O'Toole:What is okay. And now maybe everyone needs to watch this one because you saw the smile when you're successful. What's your immediate reaction when the grant is unsuccessful?
Ilaria Testa:Watch some movie and eat some junk food.
Peter O'Toole:And how long does that last? Not when we obviously. I mean,
Ilaria Testa:you know, at the beginning, it could last for a while, but then I decided that shouldn't deserve more than a really, really angry evening. Because if you I don't I know I felt I can easily get stuck thinking, ever thinking, what I could have done right, and and and and I think it's always good to, you know, improve yourself. And I think that's important, but I didn't want that to become like a a reason or bad mood. It's not sustainable in science because you're gonna get rejected in many, many ways. So, at at least for grants, I mean, it's yeah.
Ilaria Testa:Yeah. I still yeah.
Peter O'Toole:I think I'm gonna ask this of anyone, actually. When the grant is unsuccessful, do you have a retrospectively look back and go, yeah. The reviewers are right. The panel was right.
Ilaria Testa:Yeah. Of course. Especially at the beginning, like, I I was not I am I think you're used so much to talk with people in your own field, especially as a postdoc, and you get so deep into something that, I was paying very little attention on on the communication. I mean, I was thinking that everyone would understand what I'm saying, but, I was I was talking maybe too technical or, so I was not a very good communicator. And now understanding a bit better, like, how grant review work, I mean, you need to be able to to talk at least to the other scientists within the life science and be understood.
Ilaria Testa:So so it it it need to be improved. And, the the problem is that in many grants, you don't receive feedback. And, I think this is, this is a real pity because it doesn't give you the possibility to get better. But eventually, you know, when you write something and get rejected, you start discussing with peers. So you if you want, if you if you call for that, you've kind of received feedback from maybe not the review panel or someone else, and that was really helpful to then improve the writing.
Peter O'Toole:Again, new question. Gosh. This is good, isn't it? What do you prefer? Writing a grant application or writing up a results manuscript?
Ilaria Testa:Results? Of course.
Peter O'Toole:The results. The results.
Ilaria Testa:I mean, there is I know. Like, people hate writing grad, but I also think that if you don't have to stress yourself of, like, too many, there is some good in it because it make you think about your next move, like, what you wanna do it, and it's really the time that you sit down and you carefully think about every details of a potential future project. So these parts, I actually enjoy of writing GRAM. But, writing down results is also so nice because it's just the first step. Right?
Ilaria Testa:So you're you're, like, in in in brainstorming or in, in processing the result, and and and this is also in a way, a moment of, you know, that that that that is important for also the next step sort of, the processing of a certain result, the self reflection. It help you, understand them even deeply, and and go deeper and deeper and then and then plan better the next the next project.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. I I tell you, it's it's it's I've never thought about the the difference between the two. And actually, I think I think I'll be the opposite. I think I'll be writing I think the grant application because that's when you get to describe your vision. The idea, the concept for the first time and actually really distill it down into something, as you say, that that you can communicate with others in a sensible way instead of just having the idea in your head.
Peter O'Toole:And maybe the results actually, we've got the results. It's quite good whether post doc or one of the tech team can write it up because I'm moving on already. And then results are done
Ilaria Testa:Yeah. Yeah. That's true. I mean, I'm probably thinking more about the the the discussion of how to that comes after the results. So in the moment that you think more and more about the result, you're also thinking like, okay.
Ilaria Testa:What is left? What is, that we can do better, like, maybe in the next in the next project. Right? And then that could also be connected with the future vision. But yeah.
Peter O'Toole:So quick final questions. Are you an early bird or night owl?
Ilaria Testa:Night owl. I used to be.
Peter O'Toole:I suppose that's usually. Right now, it's gonna be everything. But okay. PC or Mac?
Ilaria Testa:You see in the lab, Mac in the office.
Peter O'Toole:McDonald's or Burger King?
Ilaria Testa:Mac's, the Swedish version.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. What's your favorite? What's your go to at McDonald's then?
Ilaria Testa:Oh, actually, I don't. I don't I don't do it. But
Peter O'Toole:k. Coffee or tea?
Ilaria Testa:Coffee espresso only.
Peter O'Toole:So have you got one? I bet you had one just before this.
Ilaria Testa:Before. Yes.
Peter O'Toole:You would. Chocolate or
Ilaria Testa:cheese? Cheese. Oh, okay.
Peter O'Toole:Oh, okay. So beer or wine?
Ilaria Testa:Wine. I'm so stereotypical Italian. I'm sorry.
Peter O'Toole:What is it?
Ilaria Testa:It's not wine.
Peter O'Toole:Metal white. Metal white wine.
Ilaria Testa:Red. Red.
Peter O'Toole:Again Sorry. When she said espresso, cheese, white it was always going down that line of red, wasn't it? What's your favorite food? Oh,
Ilaria Testa:well, I do love a lot of things. I love something named Zigini. I probably didn't I don't know if you heard yet, but, you know, for some family reason, I I I I have a lot of connection with Eritrea. So it's a Eritrean food in the corn of Africa, and and is is a sort of like this overcook meat with some spice on it, and, you eat with the spongy bread, and it's it's it's really tasty.
Peter O'Toole:That actually sounds quite good. I'll go with that. What what is your least favorite food? Do you have anything you really, really not fuss for eating at all?
Ilaria Testa:I said, it's, I shouldn't say it loud, but my mother-in-law might listen to that. But it's sauerkraut, so I don't like sauerkraut. And being in Germany, it's not easy to avoid them, but I don't I don't really like it.
Peter O'Toole:And so when you go to your indoors, do they always give you sauerkraut, or do they know you don't like it?
Ilaria Testa:I mean, initially, they didn't know, so I always got them. And, obviously, my partner was always laughing that that's happening. But now now they know. So it's it's a joke now. It's one
Peter O'Toole:of the best answers I think we've had. And, actually, you sent me another picture, which is, of cake.
Ilaria Testa:Oh, but
Peter O'Toole:Oh, what so describe what this cake is besides I I have no idea what this cake is besides saying super resolved and looking a bit cellular.
Ilaria Testa:Yeah. So I haven't baked it yet. I haven't baked it myself. So this is, yeah, true fact. So so my lab did, and I think I think Giovanna did some lab member.
Ilaria Testa:And then and then, she actually won even a prize for that because it was in our institute. There was, like, a contest, like, at the end of the year and so on. So so, it's it's a cake with chocolate. There are berries handpicked here in Sweden. And, and there is a neuron that, obviously, we love to imagine our, in my in our lab.
Ilaria Testa:And there is a lens because we want to see these tiny details in, in the neuronal compartment that are highlighted in white.
Peter O'Toole:Wow. I'm running a faster lens. What's your favorite cake?
Ilaria Testa:My favorite cake? I'm not a big dessert person, but, of course, I love tiramisu.
Peter O'Toole:You're not just Italian. You you said you got your children somewhere in every tray as well. So it's not just you're obviously completely Italianized Don't that
Ilaria Testa:Not far. You know? TV or book? I would yeah. TV.
Ilaria Testa:Okay. Like movies.
Peter O'Toole:Mhmm. Any trash TV that you like watching? Anything really rubbish just to chill out to?
Ilaria Testa:Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:What's the funny language? Or I I should I say this or not? My love's gonna hear this.
Ilaria Testa:Yeah. Exactly. I mean no. I mean, arrested development is really fun. Sometimes I watch, but it was really trash.
Peter O'Toole:It's good to have trash TV. Star Trek or Star Wars?
Ilaria Testa:Star Wars.
Peter O'Toole:Favorite film?
Ilaria Testa:Octamenzo from Fellini. And it's it's it's not a light movie, but it's it's fantastic. It's it's about it's about a filmmaker that has a as a block, like a filmmaker block or director block. How is it called? So it's a it's a movie about about that, about himself.
Ilaria Testa:But what I find it funny that it's a movie about the film that we you're you're watching, like, it's it's the concept. The director describing himself and the whole his struggles in making the movie while, when doing that. So it's you know, there are a lot of connections of the creative process and and what we struggle in science, sometimes in our project, all the ups and down.
Peter O'Toole:Yep. And favorite Christmas film?
Ilaria Testa:Christmas film? Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:I look forward to answering this question. If I ever get the honor in 10 years time again when your children are growing up and what your favorite Christmas film is at that point?
Ilaria Testa:I don't know the English name. I used to watch this a lot of time. I mean, all they are watching. But, yes, about ferry, like, yeah. Okay.
Ilaria Testa:Yeah. Anyway
Peter O'Toole:When you go on holiday, are you someone who likes to lay out on the beach, or would you like to go and experience culture?
Ilaria Testa:Both. I use a combination of both. I mean, I don't like to just sit down on the beach, but to do something with the sea, but, I love to go in place with with water and, and the ocean. But, typically, there are also sightseeing to do around. I mean, in Europe, we are very lucky that you can find both.
Ilaria Testa:So I guess
Peter O'Toole:Okay. Italy or Germany?
Ilaria Testa:Italy for vacation. Germany. Science.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. Germany or Sweden?
Ilaria Testa:Ouch. This is difficult. Like yeah.
Peter O'Toole:Go on. You gotta choose 1.
Ilaria Testa:Yeah. Man. Well, I I can't yeah. I don't know. Sweden, I guess.
Ilaria Testa:That's where we are. So
Peter O'Toole:And Sweden or Italy?
Ilaria Testa:Again, like, Italy for vacation and Sweden for science.
Peter O'Toole:Gosh. You gotta keep all your passports. You've been very politically good at that. I was hoping you'd go for one way and go go down a different. And so other other questions.
Peter O'Toole:Kimberly, so you said you like your exercise. You sent another picture which actually view on your your bike, so a road bike. So is this your transport to work?
Ilaria Testa:Yes. Yes. Yes. It's a 20 minutes bike ride. And then you can you know, this is the the path, so you it's it's there is a part that you're going along the sea, and then there is the forest.
Ilaria Testa:So it's nice to start the day this way.
Peter O'Toole:So you're selling you're selling Sweden really nicely. It's sounding really quite cool on the back of it. And so
Ilaria Testa:That that was June. That was June. Was then we talked again January.
Peter O'Toole:Well, do you not do you not just for us, do you not just skiing?
Ilaria Testa:Of course.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. Get get your skis back out at that point. So we talked about, TV, film. We talked about trash TV. You also sent me some pictures.
Peter O'Toole:Now I've gotta work out which one. And you sent me a picture from your favorite artist. So what is the what is the who is your favorite artist, and what sort of picture is it?
Ilaria Testa:Yeah. So so this is, this is Magritte. So, Belgian painter. Right? And, and what I like what I like of his painting that he always use the real object and, and try to, you know, question the boundaries between what is real and what, what is a representation.
Ilaria Testa:But but this especially this painting, I think it's, it relate to all of us, microscopists, because, you know, you see you see the paint of a landscape that is supposed to be real. Right? But then there is this fine line. And isn't it what a microscope does? Right?
Ilaria Testa:We we we use this instrument to to to look at a sample and to find some truth in the sample, like cells or biological process or but this is always a sort of representation or partial representation of a reality because we choose fluorescence eventually as a contrast method. We have a certain point spread function. You know, the black box. Right? And and I always like to show this picture at special ed workshop, with students because this is like, most of the time, what we actually do, we or which what we should be doing is reflecting a lot on, like, what is this fine line?
Ilaria Testa:What is our instrument? Our instrument? What is this fine line? What is the representation? What is missing?
Ilaria Testa:And and and and this is so important to reflect because it's kind of fueling, like, the next idea. Like, what is missing to have another representation that eventually, at some point, will allow us to pose, you know, better question or other question or new questions.
Peter O'Toole:And I I presume you use this in your lectures.
Ilaria Testa:Yeah. Yeah. I do. I do. At sort of a final point, like, always reflect what is the black box.
Ilaria Testa:Right? What is the fine line in this case there? What what are you actually measuring?
Peter O'Toole:And what do you thought? Because obviously, this picture, for those who are listening, is a picture. You've got an archway with a sea behind it, then the sea sort of extends to the left. If you look closely, it's actually an easel and the painting extends beyond where the window frame is. So you're seeing beyond the window as well as what's in the window.
Peter O'Toole:Have you ever thought about taking just just copying out the picture itself and then editing it to look like something slightly different to show that what you can sometimes see in a microscope isn't truly reflective of what's actually there.
Ilaria Testa:Oh, that's a very good idea. Like, to show, you know, the a cell recorded with different observable contrast. That that could be a good idea. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:Just just because it that that will then spit. I I just and they spit it on its head a bit and then for the oh, yeah. But it's the same picture. It's just because of the contrast, we're sending counsel resolution. You've lost detail or you gained detail or whatever else where you stretch the contrast or you've done something completely wrong if you manipulated the image.
Peter O'Toole:So I I I really like it. That's really cool. You sent me another picture, which say so this picture definitely isn't like the previous picture. Can for people listening, what is this picture of and what is it? And I think this is the picture in your background as well.
Ilaria Testa:It is. But it's so embarrassing to see that just after a real paint, like, done by a real painter. Right? And now comes myself trying to paint and and and yes. So so this is one of my other, let's say, 2 d work.
Ilaria Testa:But in this case, not not through the eye of a microscope, but but just with my, like, painted with watercolor. And, yeah, it represent a few instrument that are sort of personalized. So they have lags, and, and they produce something like bubble. And, I mean, I was just reflecting on that that I mean, at the end, it's still there there is some connection with science. There is.
Ilaria Testa:That is or what we do. That is sort of catching the moment or, like, the study of dynamics. So in a way, I just saw that that they give this idea of a fleeting, or something fleeting, like, you know, something happening, and that just caught in a moment. And in a way, it's what we want to do with our methodology, like, look at dynamics and and and catch biomolecule in action. So
Peter O'Toole:I I think it's I need to a it's an excellent picture. And I know before we started recording, Jason, who's actually in the background doing the recording for this, noticed it on the wall behind and immediately asked about the picture because he was drawn to it. He was impressed by it. So I don't think Jason knew it was your picture at that point. So Jason's probably now in the background thinking, oh my goodness.
Peter O'Toole:Mhmm. So so it's an amazingly good picture.
Ilaria Testa:I'm doing my great the picture in the picture.
Peter O'Toole:So thinking of, art and pictures, this obviously now oh, since this makes my head look like it's electric. You send me an image, which is which is now a proper scientific image. So I presume maybe a result image in this case then.
Ilaria Testa:Yeah. Yeah. So so it's an image of an neuron and recorded it with, I think, 3, 4 channels. It is a study image, but this, sort of, zoom out so you don't see many details. But, I choose that because, you know, we have also this, we are fascinated by by neurons, but and so we image lots of them.
Ilaria Testa:And, especially this picture always remind me about how fascinating they are as a cell, like, with all these branches and polarized morphology. And, but also challenging because, you know, they're extended cells, but they also have all these teeny tiny needles. And, it's it's, that pose a lot of challenges for microscopists because, you know, if you when you go for throughput, sometimes you compromise speed or resolution, and that's, can be a problem. So that's a big motivation or, like, for us to develop better tools that can do both, right, provide overview cell to cell interaction and then dig deep into a details specific compartment and then study how how protein are organized in this in this very packed environment.
Peter O'Toole:And here's a really nice connection between you and your husband as well. It is your work, meeting his work to a degree.
Ilaria Testa:That's true. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:The way he's currently actually thought about that part of it.
Ilaria Testa:We a bit. I mean, I feel that he want to make like, his his his goal is make all our as microscopy sort of jobless because he want to do things molecularly, right, to study spatial information with molecular tricks. So I'm not sure.
Peter O'Toole:That that that can only go so far. Yeah. You still need to see you need still need that. You still need to see to to conceptualize it. It helps And and it.
Peter O'Toole:Say the spatial side, you need to know the provenance, you need to go back to your original picture that you put in. So important to see the big picture as well as that tiny detail.
Ilaria Testa:Exactly. Exactly.
Peter O'Toole:You got plenty of put downs for non microscopists. Good. Sure. Have you ever worried about the work life balance, and have you touched on it earlier?
Ilaria Testa:Not really. I mean, I I know it sound weird, but not really. I mean, as I said so, I used to work crazy hour. I used to be extremely free and flexible in in in the timing, but I wanted to. I never felt that I had to.
Ilaria Testa:And I think your research in a way, it allow you to have this freedom. And and, definitely, I mean, I work probably more than I I should have, but, it never failed as an obligation. And that's, I think, what was important to me that I never felt trapped in the you have to be there this time and and so on. And and of course, now with with the family, you question that more. And, I do believe that I'm lucky to be in Sweden where there is a lot of understanding, versus family.
Ilaria Testa:From faculty, as a mindset, it's completely normal for, you know, both parents to take, care of kids. So maybe that also is the a bit, the whole process. But maybe
Peter O'Toole:Maybe that's a generational change as well where that's become far more accepted and maybe expected in places as well. Yeah. Care and your child care, which is, I think, a positive, as we go forward and to have that sort of shared responsibility with you. Do you think working hard, enjoying your job will inspire your own children?
Ilaria Testa:I hope so. I hope so. I mean, we'll see. I'm just looking forward that for them to reach an age where they can come to the lab and, you know, visualize things through a microscope,
Peter O'Toole:if
Ilaria Testa:they're a bit too young.
Peter O'Toole:Are you slightly worried that they might instead of having your math, physics, innate ability, that they've picked up your art ability and go into drawing pictures instead of It's it's
Ilaria Testa:it's up to them. As long as they do what they like, I'm sure they will get the motivation to do it good. So I don't at least, I don't want I mean, they don't have necessary to follow my
Peter O'Toole:of inspiring them. Who have been your inspirations and motivations? Who's inspired you, and who's motivated you?
Ilaria Testa:I think I think I was quite likely to be motivated, like, by, you know, my family and and and brothers and and and a father and mother, like oh, I mean, and friends. I all the time, like you know? And then and then and then there has been role models, but I wouldn't pinpoint a single person, rather certain characteristic in many in many person that I I've been the luck to work with. I've as I said, I mean, I I mentioned before, my math professor, she was really fun and managed to be really tough, but at the same time to use humor a lot. And that's something that inspire motivate me also in my, sort of style of supervision.
Ilaria Testa:And and and then, of course, Albert enthusiasm, Stefan, you know, resilience and, like, give really going deep into, the details and and breaking things in principles and, so that that were all really inspiring to me.
Peter O'Toole:I I I usually ask what has been the most challenging difficult time, what has been the most fun time. I've got a feeling it's just gonna be fun all the time. But have you had the most challenging time of your career? What was if if you if there was a period of 3 months, 6 months, or the year that you think I just I wouldn't want to repeat that period again. Is there any period that you wouldn't want to repeat?
Ilaria Testa:You know, I think it's in intrinsic in, I guess, the life of most scientists to have these ups and down, right, and to have this struggle. I don't know if I wouldn't pick that back because I think that always I kind of needed the struggle to give the best of myself after all. I mean, I I learned so much about that. So I as as as personality, I need the to sort of see what like, you know, to get through the struggle, to touch the boss I would say, like, but not probably real. But, to to to then try to get a better version of myself.
Ilaria Testa:And and, you know, looking back, I think maybe all this transition moment that we mentioned before were difficult because, moving from Italy to Germany, on one hand, you have to create the old kind of new friendship and then a new system and then Germany to Sweden. Probably that was the most recent so that that that I I still remember the beginning was really not easy. How
Peter O'Toole:did you find the besides the work and the the different admin, the different way of working between the the permitting it to Germany, Germany to Sweden, what about just the the social culture around it? How did you find those moves? You know, the lifestyle, the changes, the expectations. How how was that?
Ilaria Testa:As I said, in a way, like, exciting, but on the other hand, yeah, challenging. I mean, I I wouldn't say, like, they they were more related to maybe cultural cues or things like that. And and especially from Germany to Sweden, I felt that more for some reason from Italy to Germany, there was not, a big issues. Probably because, you know, the German way is very direct, so it's very easy to understand what if people are happy or unhappy with you. So in but but for Sweden, it was really different.
Ilaria Testa:It was also the position was different. Right? So, understanding, you know, in comedies, in the way you are expressing yourself, it's it's it's well received or not. It's extremely difficult. Plus, I remember but, again, it's a little bit connected to hard putting a lot of effort in I I have a very cross, like, nationality group and and merge in different cultures.
Ilaria Testa:Sometimes it's, not that easy, especially, you know, like, I just remember this fun moment. Like, in in Sweden, for example, it's it's it's it's very much appreciated silent. I mean, you need to have in conversation, silent pose because that's, like, kind of needed, for self reflection and to come up with some you know, to process what has been said. While as Italian or in Italy, you tend to not have pause in a conversation because that is when people don't feel comfortable. And so you try to fill up constantly this this pose because, you don't want to make the person uncomfortable, so you you want to help.
Ilaria Testa:And and I think this, you know, will could be perceived overwhelming, at the beginning. So you I both also in group meeting, I had to be a sort of traffic light and say, okay. Okay. Let's think about that for a moment in silence.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. I think even for the Brits, that would be quite difficult to put silence into the conversation. But
Ilaria Testa:but it helps. I mean, it's, it yeah. So Do
Peter O'Toole:Do you have any regrets at all? You the answer is gonna be no. I know this. But do you have any regrets in your career so far?
Ilaria Testa:I used to have a little bit of regret to not have been earlier in in the states, for example, to do science. I kind of now work on that because I had the opportunity to go in a sabbatical and spend, a few months there. But for me, it was always like this big curiosity, like, how how it is there, how how it is to do science, and some of them institution over there. But, otherwise, yeah, not really. No.
Peter O'Toole:Yep. That leads quite nicely on if you could work anywhere in the world, where would you choose to work?
Ilaria Testa:I'm very happy where I am. Yeah. Okay. It's very
Peter O'Toole:it's very easy. For a year, if you could take your lab and put it somewhere for a year, where would you take the lab then?
Ilaria Testa:I don't know. I think I mean, again, I think Europe is a fantastic place to do science. I you know, working a lot with fluorescence, I had big respect for Japan, and I never been there. So that I think could be really fun to explore for some times, but I can't I can't really say, oh, I would like to move all the lab there and leave there forever. I mean, that's maybe a bit much.
Ilaria Testa:I don't know. I don't know.
Peter O'Toole:Isn't Global Bi Imaging having their meeting in Japan next year? There you go.
Ilaria Testa:Oh, good. Okay.
Peter O'Toole:So what's talking to which? What's your favorite conference?
Ilaria Testa:Conference? Oh, I like all of them. I you know, historically, as I said, like, FOM was always, was my first conference. I know the community, and it felt like always felt like family to go there. And
Peter O'Toole:was born?
Ilaria Testa:2004 in, I think 2004. Was it in Jena? Yeah. And
Peter O'Toole:It was 2 when was Genoa?
Ilaria Testa:Then was the one before.
Peter O'Toole:2003? Yes.
Ilaria Testa:But then I was, not yet. I was still studying. So I went to, I think, a few lecture, but it was still, yeah, I was not into the field yet. I was, I think doing my bachelor.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. I think my first big, big conference was was from Ingenoa. That's that was Alby. Put the connection back to Alby. That was Alby's gig, obviously.
Peter O'Toole:We're nearly up to time if you could do any job for a day so not not another laugh. If you could do any job for a day or a week to see what it's like to be that type of person or that type of role, what would you go for?
Ilaria Testa:I want to be a rock star.
Peter O'Toole:That's a good answer. What is your favorite music? What is your music genre?
Ilaria Testa:Oh, I like, you know, I like I like David Bowie. Sorry? David Bowie?
Peter O'Toole:Well, I heard. I'm just really sorry that was your choice.
Ilaria Testa:Oh, no. I'm joking. Amazing. I didn't expect that as
Peter O'Toole:an answer. With the saxophone and the guitar guitar and the musical instruments and your art, I didn't expect you to say David Bowie, but
Ilaria Testa:No. No. No. No. Under pressure.
Ilaria Testa:Okay.
Peter O'Toole:No. No. That's a excellent answer, Boris. So last question. What would you like to see happen in the future?
Peter O'Toole:Will it be microscopy or career? What would you like to see or have enabled in the future?
Ilaria Testa:Oh.
Peter O'Toole:That's a big question, isn't it?
Ilaria Testa:That's a big question and can have many answer. Right? I mean, that's but what what to prioritize? I mean, I think I mean, obviously, I enjoy mentoring students, and I and, like, the first generation now when went out, and then, hopefully, there will be others. And one thing is to see them succeeding.
Ilaria Testa:I mean, it's a scientist in building up their own labs and so on or their own interest, something that I would like to see. I mean, it started already, but, I I I hope that it will happen more and more. And on the other hand, also for the instrument that we build, some of them are still very much academic instrument if you want, like, not super easy to use. And and, yeah, my big dream is, like, to making them accessible so to see that they, you know, be honed, our developer community that that they could do something and impact, science in a in a broader way.
Peter O'Toole:Well, I think they're both really good. I'd say you almost got your lab children and see your lab children go on to succeed. And, actually, the the one of the recent podcasts I did, I had the privilege of actually doing 3 of my former lab members, who've all got different careers now. They're all successful, all different careers. And I thought that was quite nice to just to see how their careers had developed from the same starting point.
Peter O'Toole:Just like yourself, they all start looking at the same sort of technology, and they've all gone off in different ways. All run away from the technology, but nonetheless well, the technology they were working. But actually, it's it's it's been interesting. So it'll be interesting to see where all your children
Ilaria Testa:I see.
Peter O'Toole:Go go up and how they succeed. And I'm absolutely right because your technology's super cool. The work is super useful, and making that more user friendly just makes it more widely applicable to many different science beauties, which would be wonderful. Hilaria, thank you so much, Dave. Everyone who's listened or watched, please don't forget to subscribe.
Peter O'Toole:Go back. You can listen to Lotta Richard Rakesh. You can listen to Stefan Heller that you've heard about and others on the previous podcast. But Elara has been really lovely, and congratulations again on your new child. And do you know what?
Peter O'Toole:Son or daughter?
Ilaria Testa:Say again?
Peter O'Toole:Son or daughter?
Ilaria Testa:Daughter. 2 female.
Peter O'Toole:2 female?
Ilaria Testa:Yes. So
Peter O'Toole:Right. You know, you've got such so much thank you for taking time out today as you still working with your children, and you still took time to talk to me today. So thank you so much, Laria.
Ilaria Testa:Thank you for having me. Grateful grateful to join.
Peter O'Toole:And I thank you. You've been brilliantly inspirational, and I'm sure everyone's loved listening to this. Ilaria, thank you.
VX:Thank you. Bye. Thank you for listening to The Microscopists, a Bite Size Bio podcast sponsored by Zeiss Microscopy. To view all audio and video recordings from this series, please visit bitesizebio.comforward/themicroscopists.
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