Kelly Vere (University of Nottingham)
Welcome to The Microscopists, a bite sized bio podcast hosted by Peter O'Toole, sponsored by Zeiss Microscopy. Today on The Microscopists
Peter O'Toole:Today on The Microscopists, I'm joined by Kelly Rhea, who reminds us there's more than one way to go about getting a degree.
Kelly Vere:I kind of thought, okay. I think I need to go and
Intro/Outro:get a degree to be able to give me a foundation for future career. I think that was
Kelly Vere:the case certainly in the late nineties. I couldn't necessarily afford to go to university in the traditional sense. So I just looked for any job, any job. I didn't mind what it was as long as it would pay for me to get a degree part of time.
Peter O'Toole:She explains the initiatives that she set up to get the contributions of technicians in education internationally recognized.
Kelly Vere:I thought, like, I thought it would be amazing if I could get 5 universities to sign this thing, you know, for the launch. But we actually launched the technician commitment at the second UK Higher Education Technician Summit, which we held in Warwick in 2017. And we launched with 36 founding signatories, which was just amazing. And that was in the May and then by the September of the same year, I think we were up to over 70 signatories.
Peter O'Toole:And how she would have become an astronaut were we not forget any dreadful seasickness.
Kelly Vere:Problem is, I do get really seasick, so I'd probably really struggle, wouldn't I? You know, there's those, like, test things you have to do whether yeah. I'd probably be useless, to be honest.
Peter O'Toole:All in this episode of The Microscopist. Hi. Welcome to the microscopist. I'm Peter O'Toole. And today, I'm joined by Kelly Vere, MBE from the University of Nottingham and the UK Institute of Technical Skills and Strategy.
Peter O'Toole:And we have a lot to describe today. Kelly, how are you?
Kelly Vere:I'm good. Thanks, Pete. It's good to see you.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. Likewise, Kelly. Thank you for agreeing to this. I I do you know what? You might be the first MBE that I've actually done.
Peter O'Toole:What is, for the international audience, an MBE?
Kelly Vere:Oh, gosh. Okay. So it's an award, I guess, made by the crown. So it means you're a member of the order of the British Empire. Yeah.
Kelly Vere:It was it was a huge surprise and a big shock when I was awarded that.
Peter O'Toole:And and who awarded you the MBE?
Kelly Vere:Oh, you mean in person at the Yeah. Investor? So the letter I was really lucky because the original letter, it it was signed off by the majesty, the queen, so it was really lovely. And then in person, the investiture was, Prince William, which was a nice delight, I have to say, a real delight.
Peter O'Toole:So that's actually a really mega achievement. So I think we can say you're very a high flyer, very successful in your career. You
Kelly Vere:know I'm going to get really uncomfortable with you saying things like that, but thank you. That's pretty kind.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. Well, you're an inspiration to many, and we'll come to that later on. And actually, so Kelly's been involved in really the career progressions, the environments of many researchers, and has been instrumental in some significant changes throughout UK academia and now going wider into the international environment, which we'll discuss in more detail later. But firstly, I wanna dig back and find out, when you were a young child, so the can you remember what your the earliest job you ever fancied doing?
Kelly Vere:Yeah. I can remember it really clearly. I wanted to be an astronaut. Desperately wanted to be an astronaut. What happened?
Kelly Vere:It never quite got there. Never quite got there.
Peter O'Toole:Yet.
Kelly Vere:Yet. Yet. Yeah. I don't know if I fancy it as much now, but, yeah, I did back back as a young girl. I did.
Kelly Vere:Yeah. For sure.
Peter O'Toole:So what inspired you? Why what was what was do you remember a trigger of why you were so into space and wanted to be an astronaut?
Kelly Vere:My dad and I had always had a shared passion for sort of human space flight, you know, like the Apollo missions and and things like that. So I think there was a shared sort of passion there with my father. And then I remember Helen Charman, who was the 1st Briton of Space, obviously Little Women in STEM as well, which was amazing. So I guess her as well. Yeah.
Kelly Vere:Well, in STEM. And, actually, my son now is really into that type of thing, which is exciting. So I get to share that with him and my dad now, which is lovely.
Peter O'Toole:How old is your son?
Kelly Vere:16 now. 16.
Peter O'Toole:Does he still want to be an astronaut?
Kelly Vere:A pilot. So who knows? Okay.
Peter O'Toole:So far from wanting to be from wanting to be an astronaut, which is very I don't know what degree you'd do to be an astronaut. I guess that could be almost anything, couldn't it? What what was your first degree in?
Kelly Vere:Well, my first degree was in biomedical sciences, but I guess I I guess I did that in a slightly unconventional way at the time.
Peter O'Toole:Go on.
Kelly Vere:So I was I I did really well in my GCSEs at school. I was a bright kid. If I wanted I probably didn't have to work too hard. I was alright. I had a natural affinity for exams.
Kelly Vere:Then I went to college and did my a doubles. I didn't do so great in my a doubles. I think I thought, quite arrogantly, I guess, on reflection that I could just get great grades without having to do much because I could do exams, but, that wasn't the case at all. So I did pass my a levels, but nowhere near with the grades that I would have hoped, you know, to get. And that was a huge, like, shock, but I think one of the most important things for me actually individually to go through, to realize that actually it didn't always come that easily.
Kelly Vere:I wanted to go to university and I could still go to university with the grades I've got, but I guess I was, I couldn't afford to go to university in the sort of traditional sense. Whereas most people access university, that just wasn't an option for me. Yeah. So I thought back at that time, I think we're talking like 1999 now, so, yeah, late nineties, the the loans have come in instead of the grants, the tuition fees, and so forth. So it was a very different time, and I kind of thought, okay.
Kelly Vere:I think I need to go and
Intro/Outro:get a degree to be able to give me a foundation for future career.
Kelly Vere:I think that was the case certainly in the late nineties, but I couldn't necessarily afford to go to university in a traditional sense. So I just looked for any job, any job. I didn't mind what it was as long as it would pay for me to get a degree part time and I stumbled across an advertisement in the local paper for a junior medical technician at the University of Nottingham. And so applied for that role and to my amazement, got that role because my inner was in science, actually. So, yeah, I'm still to this day not quite sure how I managed it, but I was really fortunate to work with the research group where the head of the research group funded my tuition fees for a part time degree in biomedical sciences at Sheffield Hallam
Peter O'Toole:University. What what role were you fulfilling at that point?
Kelly Vere:I was a junior medical technician in the division of immunology, so a research technician essentially.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. And so what were your a levels in?
Kelly Vere:Gosh. Business studies, psychology, and communication studies. So at safety, it was really hard to go from a GCSE in biology to a BSc honors in biomedical science, you know, without the a level bridge.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. So I've
Kelly Vere:been that super tough. And, of course, I was literally driving up the m one to a lecture and then driving back to work. So it wasn't the traditional student experience potentially. I
Peter O'Toole:didn't do a level biology.
Kelly Vere:Did you not?
Peter O'Toole:No. Caught up very quickly in a degree in biochemistry. That was kind of a crash course in a level biology in the first year.
Kelly Vere:Yeah. I I found it really, really tough, but I guess it did give me a work ethic, particularly, you know, after I'd had that shock to the system of not doing quite as long as I'd like to in my a level.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. Well, yeah, my a levels were also poor. They they weren't great. But you get that imposter syndrome. And I think I'm competitive.
Peter O'Toole:So that, yeah, kicked me back into learnt how to learn at university. I don't think I ever properly learned how to learn before that.
Kelly Vere:Mhmm.
Peter O'Toole:I think, schools now are very different, I think. Far more focused on teaching how to learn as well Mhmm. Which is good. So from that degree, what happened next?
Kelly Vere:Gosh. Okay. So I guess whilst it was hard work, it was really beneficial to be working full time and gaining a degree part time because, I guess I had that work experience alongside full time students on my course who, you know, whose degree actually took the same time as mine, but they had a sandwich year. Remember the sandwich year degrees? Yeah.
Kelly Vere:So I completed my degree at the same time as my fellow students, but I guess because I built up so much experience or 4 years worth of experience as a technician at the University of Nottingham, it put me in a strong position to apply for a more senior role, and that's when I actually moved into imaging. I went to work in copper for microscopy, actually, at the age of 24, I think.
Peter O'Toole:And where was that? Was that at Nottingham?
Kelly Vere:Yeah. That was at the University of Nottingham as well and the medical school.
Peter O'Toole:So what was your first confocal?
Kelly Vere:Oh, gosh. You're testing my memory now. I think it was a Leica s b 2, if my memory serves me correctly. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:You must be come on. You always remember your first confocal.
Kelly Vere:I don't know. I don't know. Maybe it's my age, but my memory is not what it was.
Peter O'Toole:So to that, that's sort of to your degree side and everything else. And I take you're enjoying the technical role, supporting, using the confocal microscope. But you've you've moved over from that. So you now go over to be kind of nationally internationally, internationally leading, championing technical skills. I I don't know.
Peter O'Toole:What's the best way to describe it? You'll be far better at describing this than I am.
Kelly Vere:It's so of a mystery to me, to be honest with you, in some ways. I guess when I first became a junior medical technician, I was just 18. I was fresh out of avails. I arrived at this university. You know, I'd never stepped foot on a university campus before.
Kelly Vere:I guess as a naive 18 year old, I thought universities were full of professors and students. I didn't realise there were these whole, you know, amazing people who really make science, innovation, research and education happen. So that was quite amazing to me and it became very apparent that, you know, technical staff were vital to the university's mission. However, I soon realized that I guess beyond the immediate research group when you looked to the wider department or school or faculty or university and then even the sector as a whole, as as technicians, our profession, right, didn't really experience strong visibility or recognition or the same career development opportunities that our academic academic colleagues had, and I can remember that realization really starkly. As I advanced sort of my career as a technician, so I became senior research technician.
Kelly Vere:I was working with a corporate perspective I've mentioned. I became a institute laboratory manager. One of the opportunities that came up was a scholarship from HEFCE to study a part time master's in higher education. So I applied for that. It wasn't clear if technicians were eligible or not, and, I applied for that as a way to, I guess, build some insights, knowledge, and understanding as to the technical role in higher education because there's a real positive literature, and strategic understanding of what technicians do in universities and research institutes and I guess that if you like ended up being a bit of a springboard to becoming what I would describe as an accidental advocate for the technical profession.
Kelly Vere:After I wrote my master's dissertation on the role of university technicians I was invited to, well actually no, first thing that happened was I wrote a piece for Times Higher Education, an article called firm fussing. I didn't think they will publish it. I was absolutely amazed when they published it, and they paid me. I couldn't believe it. But I guess by doing that, I accidentally put my head above the parapet.
Kelly Vere:So, you know, I had this rallying call about how, you know, we absolutely needed to support technical staff and recognizing and invest in this crucial, you know, workforce, And then it spiraled.
Peter O'Toole:So interesting. So you've got the article out in Times Higher Education. How passionate were you about the needs at that time? Was it just kind of an academic exercise? You put it into Times Higher Education.
Peter O'Toole:It's like, oh, that's interesting. I'll I'll write it. Because now obviously you're very passionate about it. Were you as passionate about the roles of technical staff and their development back then as you are now? Or was that mature?
Peter O'Toole:Did you realize the bigger picture?
Kelly Vere:No. Absolutely as passionate back then. Absolutely. When you're living it and breathing it and walking the walk every day, of course you're passionate about it, you know, absolutely. And and actually that decision to publish in Times Higher was a very deliberate one.
Kelly Vere:I remember talking to my dissertation supervisor about a potential academic article that could come out of the dissertation and I kind of felt really strongly, well, no, with the greatest respect, not many people would have looked at that and read it, and, actually, there was a real need to do something for the technical profession. And I felt that, you know, a news sort of magazine or something would be more widely read and therefore potentially might help do something for us.
Peter O'Toole:Which it has, because I I I know where it's got, obviously, quite close to the project. But what were the next steps? Who approached you to did you approach someone and try and drive it forward and actually make something happen? Or were you approached to help make something happen?
Kelly Vere:Gosh, Pete. I've got to try and reflect on what happened, really. So the article came out, and then I was invited to give a keynote lecture at a conference, a half an hour lecture. I I am really frightened with public speaking even to this day. It's just not something that I'm naturally comfortable
Peter O'Toole:with. And yet you're very good when you're publicly speaking.
Kelly Vere:Well, that's very kind. Thank you. But I do get really, really nervous about public speaking. And, I can remember being asked to do this talk and thinking, I can't do that. I'm just too terrified to do that.
Kelly Vere:But realizing that I couldn't argue in a national publication that we needed to give technicians voice and visibility and then be given that voice and visibility and say, oh, no. Thank you. So I knew I had to step out of my comfort zone and do that. I did that talk and left that day with 6 more on vacations to go and speak at different organizations and it sort of spiraled. And around that time I was sort of looking at what else wasn't or was available to Temple staff nationally and something that was missing, I felt, was a national conference for technical staff working in neuro education and research.
Kelly Vere:And so I made one up and we hosted it at the University of Nottingham in 2015. And, I can remember really clearly having a conversation with someone in the comms team here at the university, and this was a national conference for
Peter O'Toole:technicians
Kelly Vere:across the UK. But they said, oh, don't call it a conference. Call it a summit. Because if you call it a summit, it's how people will get behind the summit, it sounds much grander. And so we created the UK Higher Education Technicians Summit, which is now known as HECS and, you know, that's got a life of its own now, which is wonderful.
Kelly Vere:It's a big, professional development and networking about the technical staff and higher education research, which takes place every 2 years. Off the back of that, or I should say, alongside the summit we created something called the Paquin Prizes. I felt really strongly about that. There was no sort of national award scheme for technicians, so creative won, and we were delighted because, you know, we awarded them at the 1st Tower Education Technicians Summit and I think over 250 technicians across the UK were nominated, which was just amazing, you know, to see colleagues get that recognition and see how great they felt when they saw, you know, that someone's taking the time to put a nomination, which is wonderful. Off the back of that, the Science Council approached me about working with them, particularly around the theme of professional registration in the first instance.
Kelly Vere:Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:So I you say 2015 for that conference. Just think about how short the time frame is to achieve so much. From the article to the talks to the conference to the conference is to the, I guess, the technician's commitment, then led on from that.
Kelly Vere:It did. So I joined the Science Council on a part time second, an external secondment, and originally they were looking to see how they could promote professional registration to the technical community. So professional registration as you know Pete is when you can get your charter scientist or your charter engineer, for example, status, but the Science Council had recently introduced 2 new levels of registration which sit just below chartered status, which I guess for the first time created a pathway for colleagues to, you know, go on that sort of chartered journey. So technicians could be applied to be registered science technicians, for example, or registered engineering technicians. And I know there was work underway in other sort of subject disciplines as well, but, you know, ultimately technical staff can be charter scientists and engineering.
Kelly Vere:We have a number of those in place now. However, when I was working with the Science Council on that piece, you know, it's it was immediately apparent again that universities just don't have neat ways of speaking to, you know, to them about technical staff. Not one person has responsibility for technical staff, so it's very hard for external organisations to come to a university and say, oh, we must talk about how we can invest in or develop your technical staff, because no one has that portfolio, and so that got me thinking that we needed something that created, I guess, a bit of a pledge or a per you know, coupled with a person or a figurehead for individual institutions to really get behind, and that's where the idea for the technician commitment came from.
Peter O'Toole:It also explains why, Simon Breeden at your well, who was at York at the time, suddenly became responsible for every technician on campus Pretty much through that. See, because obviously, a lot of universities became signatories of the technicians commitment to really show that they're engaged in the development of the careers, for their technical staff throughout the university. And not just to the sciences. It's across the board. And, you know, microscopists, as as the SCCs in microscopists, are just a small, very small niche part of a much bigger picture.
Peter O'Toole:And, actually, I think York, through Debbie Smith, I think it was, was one of the first signatories on that, when everyone put ink to pen to paper. Is that the right word to use?
Kelly Vere:Absolutely. Yes. Paper. Cool. Yeah.
Kelly Vere:So, essentially, you're quite right. The technician put in is a pledge that we ask universities universities and research institutes originally across the UK to make, and by signing the technician commitment, they are pledging activity against 4 key pillars that impact their technical staff. So they're visibility, recognition, career development, and sustainability. And by sustainability, I mean sort of, you know, the sustainability of the skills, and the skills in the organization. I thought, like, I thought it would be amazing if I could get 5 universities to sign this thing, you know, for the launch.
Kelly Vere:But we actually launched the technician commitment at the 2nd UK Higher Education Technicians Summit, which we held in Warwick in 2017, and we launched with 36 founding signatories, which was just amazing. And that was in the May, and then by the September of the same year, I think we were up to over 70 signatories. And now the technician commitment stands over a 117 signatory, universities, research institutes, and supporting our organizations. As you know, the Royal Society are one of our supporters.
Peter O'Toole:And not just the UK?
Kelly Vere:No. So to be honest, when I launched the technician commitment, we got quite a lot of interest internationally immediately with, you know, institutions internationally wanting to sign the commitment and get on board, And I just felt that we had to proceed with caution on that, not because I didn't want to go on a world tour or go global or anything like that. Of course not. Of course, we wanna share good practice, but at that point, we didn't have that good practice and felt that we needed to prove that this model, this framework could work and deliver real impact for institutions and for the technical staff within them, not just go on, yeah, a world war straight away as nice as it would have been. But I
Peter O'Toole:I I remember I remember talking to you about making it international and driving faster. And you guys and you were, like, slow down slow down. But you could see the European the movements that were happening within the so core technologies for life sciences, for example, that was bringing out and there was a risk of a lot of duplication of efforts. When actually there was a pretty perfect exemplar to the technician's commitment that was there on the peg. That they could just take off the peg and run with and take it out, which which I think is what's now been happening.
Peter O'Toole:So you got Institute in Germany. Is that right? That signed up Australia?
Kelly Vere:Not yet, but Australia. So you're absolutely right. The tech the beauty of the commitment is its simplicity, really. It's a common framework, which you're absolutely right we can use internationally. Our 1st international sync through the University of Sydney, we worked with them quite carefully actually to ensure that we could give them the support that they needed to, you know, learn from the best practices from institutions across the UK and body up if you like.
Kelly Vere:So that's been really exciting. And then we also have, the welcome program in, what, oh gosh, Malawi. Sorry. Raining fog there. But, yeah, in Malawi, which is excellent.
Kelly Vere:So that's the Liverpool welcome, program over there, which has become our tech and international center, which is really exciting.
Peter O'Toole:So so I think it's still quite an influence. Still, it's had a massive influence and still a lot of growth potential within it. I'm gonna, just skip for a moment because I will come back to the Institute For Technical Skills and Talent and how TSN how will these things fit together? Because it becomes more and more complex as you go through. But throughout all of this, you've got a a son.
Peter O'Toole:Is it just one child you got? One son?
Kelly Vere:No. I've got 2. 2? I've got one son and one daughter.
Peter O'Toole:And how old are they?
Kelly Vere:Now they're 16 and 13. So, yeah, 2 teenagers in the house.
Peter O'Toole:So at the start of this, they'd have been 6 and 3 or even younger at that point.
Kelly Vere:Mhmm.
Peter O'Toole:How did you balance bringing up your children through and doing so much. You know, how did you keep the energy, the passion, the drive? How did you actually balance that work life side of things? Because that can't have been easy.
Kelly Vere:No. I guess it wasn't. And and I if I'm absolutely honest, I probably haven't got my work life balance always particularly right, if that makes sense. Obviously, my children are my priority first and foremost, but I think it's really important they see me go to work and be passionate about the job I do and try and make some change in my tiny little part of the world, if that makes sense. I'm also really lucky.
Kelly Vere:I've got an incredibly, you know, supportive family. You know, my parents are hands on with their grandchildren when they were small and still continue to be, which is which is really lovely. So, yeah, great people around me too.
Peter O'Toole:Tiny part of the world. How many technicians just in the UK?
Kelly Vere:Well, that's an interesting question because it depends on how you define a technician, but we estimate around 45,000 at least with a number of gray areas around that way.
Peter O'Toole:And that's just your little parts role. The influencing and
Kelly Vere:the part
Peter O'Toole:world. 45,000 people, you've probably had a positive impact, for a large portion.
Kelly Vere:Oh, I I hope so. I hope so because that's why we do what we do, isn't it? What's been really lovely about the kids is that they've been able to get involved a little bit with some of my work along the way, so that's been really nice. One example of that is, we work with Gatsby on a new technician gallery at the Science Museum in London. I think you're familiar with that, aren't you, Pete?
Peter O'Toole:Yep.
Kelly Vere:This is something that showcases technician careers across all sectors and disciplines to 12 to 16 year olds, but when we launched the gallery, so the year before it opened, the science camp, the science museum realized that they didn't have a kid who was between 12 16 years old to sort of talk about it and so my son, Lewis, came in gave a speech at the sort of press gathering for the launch of the Science Museum Gallery all about well, she wrote himself all about how technicians were were vital, really, to society. And, of course, he took the angle of a what was he then? 13, 14 year old lad. So he was talking about, you know, how they, when he's had a blood test, it's technicians who analyzed the results. When he's on his PlayStation, it's technicians who built the games and so forth, but it was kinda nice that I've been able to sort of intertwine that a little bit.
Peter O'Toole:So you've been, hopefully, an influence to them and probably one of their inspirations as they get older. And I think when they look back, it's very hard for children when they grow up with that around them. They don't realize just how big an impact you've probably had. I think when they get older, they'll find that really inspiring. Who've been your inspirations?
Peter O'Toole:In line, are you sort of in work, out of work, whichever way, who who are you been your influences?
Kelly Vere:My parents. Definitely. I know it's probably an obvious one to say, but it's the true one. They're proper grafters. You know?
Kelly Vere:We crack on and we get stuff done and that, you know, the work ethic, I think they've instilled in me. It's been huge, and they still work hard now. They're supposed to be retired but they're struggling with that.
Peter O'Toole:How proud are they of? Do they realize you're being passed? They must. You've got an MBE, so that would that would that for them, they must be so chuffed.
Kelly Vere:Don't get me wrong. I have a I have a sister as well, and my mom and dad are incredibly proud of of me and Michelle. Absolutely. If I'm honest, they probably didn't completely have an idea of what I did for a for a job, and I think it is quite hard when you work in institutions like ours, isn't it, to describe what you do on a day to day basis? They knew I worked on technicians and and and so forth, but they didn't probably quite understand.
Kelly Vere:And I think, yeah, I think the MBA was a big shock to them. I I rang them, and I I was quite emotional about it. It was in lockdown, so I couldn't go and see them, when my letter came, you see.
Peter O'Toole:Hello?
Kelly Vere:Yeah. I don't think that's the news they thought I was gonna tell them.
Peter O'Toole:Mondo, I've got another child on the way.
Kelly Vere:That's what they got me. I was like, no. No. Not that. But it was lovely because, because it was lockdown, we actually had to wait a year for the investiture.
Kelly Vere:But whilst they couldn't come into Windsor Castle with me, they came down to Windsor with the kids and yeah. It was it was a special day for sure.
Peter O'Toole:So that's so so I I think it's really nice. So they they've been your inspiration, but they can see the success that that's that's brought. And if they listen to this podcast, hopefully they'll realize you're influencing 45,000 people or more. And that global influence throughout it. This all sounds great, but there must have been difficult or challenging times throughout the career.
Peter O'Toole:What what has been the most challenging time or difficult time you've had to face?
Kelly Vere:Probably on the spot now, Pete. I think I don't think I'd seen, like, one single challenging time. I think it's I think it's it's it's hard to juggle everything, isn't it? You know? I want and to feel like you're doing a good job in all areas of your life.
Kelly Vere:So as well as obviously, having children and and and the job and so forth and wanting to invest for the colleagues that you work with and are advocating for essentially, I was still keen to progress my studies. So after the masters, I took on a ed d, so a part time doctorate in education to continue my research into technical skills, roles, and careers in higher education. That ended up taking me 9 years to complete the because it was just so hard to juggle everything, and it was so hard to fit everything into the day. So there were some really challenging moments then.
Peter O'Toole:How do you stay motivated through that?
Kelly Vere:Sorry? How
Peter O'Toole:do you stay motivated over 9 years?
Kelly Vere:Well, I guess if you're passionate about something, and actually my practice and I guess my academics study were very heavily intertwined, which is the beauty of a professional doctorate like an MD, actually. You're researching your own practice, so I guess that's how you stay. So that was tricky, and I guess there's another there'll be there'll be just little nuggets of examples of where, you know, ultimately I'm I guess I've been trying to advocate for community who traditionally have, as I mentioned, who experienced a lack of visibility and recognition and sometimes the research culture for people in that community isn't always positive. So I've had a few negative comments thrown my way, you know, along the journey, and that can be pretty hard to dust yourself down from. Are these
Peter O'Toole:negative comments from senior academics or people very senior within the university environment or are these from actually technicians themselves or both?
Kelly Vere:Say I'd say a mixture, Pete, to be honest. A mixture. But I must stress, you know, I'm incredibly well supported here at the University of Nottingham. It's it's, you know, it's just individual comments. I think I've been told to get back in my box on occasion because I'm just a technician.
Kelly Vere:I had a postdoctoral researcher tell me once when she learned that I was a technician, that she wouldn't wipe her shoes on someone the likes of me where she came from. You know, just just little barbed comments along the way because, I guess, you're trying to do something different, aren't you? And when you try to do something different, that can make people feel uncomfortable. But I guess those sort of things really just strengthen your resolve to make a change for the better for the community you're from. So
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. So just just the thought of someone saying, you know, that she wouldn't buy her shoes. It's it's just in any in any world, that that's almost an unacceptable language, really, isn't it?
Kelly Vere:I think she was trying to almost like she was from a very she wasn't from the institution that I work at. She was from a different institution with very hierarchical structures where the postdoc was here and the technician was here. And I think when she first joined the team, she assumed I was a postdoc like her. And when she learned I was a technician, I was, woah. You know?
Kelly Vere:I'm I'm here. You're here. And and that's just one example, I guess, of sometimes the negative cultures that technicians do very sadly operate in. I think it's changed much for the better, and that's a massive aim of the technician commitment to improve, you know, the culture and environment for all colleagues who contribute to the research ecosystem.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. I I guess so simple. I guess I fell into more technical roles without realising it, I guess. And and I I will champion York because they're extra well, they've just been exceptionally good. Certainly for the technology facility and progressing the careers, also the careers and the staff within it have been really quite amazing.
Peter O'Toole:I'm not sure that's the same everywhere across campus. But certainly within that facility, there's I don't think there's ever been that them and us. It's always been a I I thought an us as in we're just together, I think. And I think that's even got even better, over the years. And I guess they just see us as extensions to their labs at that point because we are part of their team for those bits of work.
Peter O'Toole:And I think that's really important. I do. Yeah. We talked I I think we spoke about this with some of the other like, with Stefan De Jong and stuff in other meetings. Alison North and Kurt Andersen talking about these type of roles within it.
Peter O'Toole:Thinking of these types of roles, we've got so I'm involved with Core Technologies for Life Sciences, which is, I guess, technical provision of high end technology for life sciences. We've got the technical specialist network here in the UK, which is for, I guess, more technology orientated technical staff across the sciences and arts and humanities. So across all disciplines. But it's still a sort of a an a subset of all technical services. You've got the talent.
Peter O'Toole:Stuff down in, the Midlands, Innovation area. And then we've got the Institute of Technical Skills and Strategy. Oh my god. How do all these fit together?
Kelly Vere:Do you want me to walk you through it?
Peter O'Toole:Go on, please.
Kelly Vere:Okay. So the technician commitment, as we've already talked about, launched in 2017 and I guess what that did was really create an environment where you know as a sector we had more recognition of the challenges and opportunities for the technical community. What the technician commitment did by creating that environment is I guess is provide an opportunity to apply to funding bodies for work to design, I guess, innovative interventions to try and address some of those challenges that we identified through the commitment and collectively as a sector we're looking to address. So the first, bid that I wrote to research Unum was the talent programme as you mentioned. So that was an award just under £5,000,000 made to the Midlands Innovation Universities.
Kelly Vere:How much? It's 4,900,000. Yeah. I know.
Peter O'Toole:Is that your first grant?
Kelly Vere:As a principal investigator. Yes.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. That's impressive. Okay.
Kelly Vere:But, again, it's great, isn't it? Because, you know and researching you were so supportive in that, you know, as a technician, they felt it was appropriate that I learned that seeing as though it was a project about technical staff. So, yeah, really important. Apologies. I can see my, calendar things popping up there.
Kelly Vere:Hopefully, they're not coming up on your screen as well, can you?
Peter O'Toole:No. No. It's fine.
Kelly Vere:So, yes, so £4,900,000 from talent, which was great for a project to pilot new initiatives in the Midlands, but to also generate strategic insight and knowledge nationally, so the project absolutely had national reach as well as, you know, trialing some particular interventions around learning, development and culture change in the Midlands. The big sort of strategic piece through talent was the Talent Commission, which we published in 2022. For this, this is something I've wanted to do for a long time, but we were able to pull together an amazing team of commissioners, all types of backgrounds. So we have vice chancellors, we have representativeships from funding bodies, we have technicians quite rightly, you know, representatives from industry, professional bodies, learning societies, and so forth. And those colleagues worked together for a period of 20 months, to develop a report for the sector which really provided some, you know, essential foundational knowledge and strategic insights into the technical workforce in UK Higher Education and Research.
Kelly Vere:That made 16 recommendations, to the sector and to different parts of the sector. Recommendation number 16 was that we needed a more permanent entity to build on the work of the technician commitment and the talent project, and the suggestion from the commission was that it should be an entity working title, UK Institute Technical Skills and Strategy. That led us to then write another bid to Research England and we were awarded £5,500,000 last year to establish the new UK Institute of Technical Skills and Strategy. The new institute is the home now of the technician commitment, so previously the Science Council had hosted the commitment on behalf of the sector, it's now moved to the Institute of Technical Skills and Strategy. The Institute of Technical Skills and Strategy also hosts the UK Technology Specialist Network, which you and I know well.
Peter O'Toole:So I I'm just thinking, you are so if I go back, you were seconded, to do some of this work in the very early stages. Are you now full time
Kelly Vere:on this? So I was seconded initially to the science council, so you worked around professional registration and then to, like you know, that evolved into the tension commitment, which is about much broader things than just professional registration. The professional registration is crucial. Now my role at Nottingham is I'm director of technical strategy for the university. We have a team of just over 700 technical staff here at the university.
Kelly Vere:So that's my day job if you like. And then I also lead the UK Institute for Technical Film and Strategy, the technician commitment, and the talent program as part of
Peter O'Toole:that project. Other full time job.
Kelly Vere:Yeah. It's good, though. Keeps it keeps it interesting. Right?
Peter O'Toole:I I how do you juggle your priorities between those two goals? And this is an interesting point, actually. You know, my goals with the RMS, TSN, CTLS, you gotta balance that with the day job. And I've always taken that anything I do on the the charity side, there's always benefits to the day job. The job that actually pays my salary.
Peter O'Toole:But but how do you actually because you're leading it and it needs real leadership, to drive it forward. How do you balance that?
Kelly Vere:What a really steep learning curve for me was you know, at the beginning of all of this, it was just me. The technician commitment was one person in the beginning. And, actually, now at the institute, I think on head count we have a head count of around 45 colleagues working across different projects, including talent and the commission commitment. And I guess that recognition that you can't do it all yourself was a a steep learning curve for me, and it's I'm just so privileged that, you know, I work with wonderful people who are all really passionate about this. You know?
Kelly Vere:And as a team, you know, we can deliver so much more than just me on my own for sure.
Peter O'Toole:How good are you delegating now then?
Kelly Vere:I'm getting a lot better. I have to. No. A lot better. And do you know what?
Kelly Vere:It's more about I think I was better when I reframed it in my head as it actually being about giving people opportunities, you know, in their careers rather than me feeling like I was passing on a job, you know, that was a burden to them. It's been wonderful to be able to give colleagues opportunities to really progress in trying new things.
Peter O'Toole:So we looked at challenging times and to to where you got to today with it. What about the most favorite? What's been the favorite time of your career to date? If you could go back and relive a year of your career, when would it be?
Kelly Vere:That's a really hard one, Pete. A really hard one.
Peter O'Toole:You're not allowed to say next year.
Kelly Vere:No. Okay. What would I say? There was a good year I mean, I loved being a technician. I'm not at the bench now, but I did love being a technician.
Kelly Vere:I remember getting my first first author scientific paper. You know, that was a special moment, so I'm picking out moments rather than a whole year.
Peter O'Toole:That's okay.
Kelly Vere:One of the projects I'm most proud of actually is something called the Herschel program. Are you familiar with that, Pete? You probably are.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. Yeah. Not very well versed though.
Kelly Vere:Yeah. So I guess I had always felt so I worked in science and engineering as a technician, and I always felt that, you know, particularly when I was working in optical engineering, I was frequently the only woman in the room. You know, I and I definitely felt that, well supported by, you know, colleagues, but often, you know, the the lone female in the in the room. And I always thought, oh, you know, there's something we need to do about this for sure. Was lucky enough to work with the team here at Nottingham to secure some EPSRC funding a few years ago for a project called the STEM change, and that was looking at EDI across the STEM workforce, but my particular part of that was, you know, dedicated some surprisingly to EDI and the technical community And we did some, you know, very robust evidence based research that, you know, published a a sector report in partnership with the technician commitment, that showed amongst many other BDI challenges that we had a real lack of women technical leaders and managers in the technical workforce in UK higher education and research.
Kelly Vere:And I feel really strongly that it's one thing to report something, but actually you should do something about those sort of things that you're, you know, reporting on. And so, fortunately, with the talent funding, we were able, to create a new program for women, and we called it the Hershel program for women in technical leadership. And whilst talent was to pilot things in the Midlands with Herschel, I felt the problem was so severe that we should go national with it straight away. And so with the team and talent we built, you know, a really robust 6 month programme, leadership and development programme, but bespokely for women in technical roles or who are aspiring to be leaders or managers in the technical space. I thought we might get 50 women once to do the course.
Kelly Vere:The first cohort ran at over 200 women. It was amazing, and I can't tell you the energy that we have in the we have a one day conference at the end of the 6 month program, and the energy in the out of the necessary that we're doing is just phenomenal. And we're actually on our 3rd cohort of the Herschel program now. We've been looking to additional funding with UKRI to keep that going. And by July this year, over 750 of my women technical colleagues across the UK will have finished that program, which is just it's just about the time.
Kelly Vere:That's that's a favorite part of my job, definitely.
Peter O'Toole:And I I again, it's just another solid impact, isn't it? You I I you wow. If you had a if you had a set of achievements and so these aren't just reporting. You say you've got so many achievements. It's unbelievable.
Peter O'Toole:I'm gonna I've just yeah. Anyway, so we asked you you mentioned how you missed being at the bench or you like being at the bench. But that's obviously migrated away from that as as as it often does. If you could do any job outside of science, what job would it be? Just to as a tater for a day, a week, a month, what would you like
Kelly Vere:to do? Astronaut.
Peter O'Toole:Do you not, do you not do you not feel the risks are too high now?
Kelly Vere:What do I do with that?
Peter O'Toole:Where would the technicians be? It's anything wrong. Could you do that? If he sat you in that space rocket It
Kelly Vere:probably is. I do get really seasick, so I'd probably really struggle, wouldn't I? You know, those those, like, test things you have to do whether yeah. I'd probably be useless, to be honest, but would it just be fabulous to have that view back down there? It's amazing,
Peter O'Toole:isn't it? Well, if if any of our if anyone's listening that's got one of those tickets to go up into space. Yeah. I've got I've got a volunteer that we're all deserving of getting up there. Katie, I'll ask you some quick fire questions.
Kelly Vere:Okay. That's good.
Peter O'Toole:Are you an early bird or night owl?
Kelly Vere:Nitell.
Peter O'Toole:I know that one. PC or Mac? Mac. McDonald's or Burger King?
Kelly Vere:McDonald's.
Peter O'Toole:What's your favorite thing? What's your breakfast or dinner?
Kelly Vere:Dinner.
Peter O'Toole:Chicken or beef? Chicken. A chicken sandwich or nuggets?
Kelly Vere:Chicken sandwich.
Peter O'Toole:Is that your go to then?
Kelly Vere:Yeah. This time, I love chicken sandwich. Yeah. Absolutely. You know my real go to, Pete.
Peter O'Toole:We'll get there. Tea or coffee?
Kelly Vere:Tea. I I wish I like coffee. I love the smell, and I'm sure I would benefit hugely from some coffee in my life, but just don't like the taste.
Peter O'Toole:No. That's okay. Beer or wine?
Kelly Vere:Wine. Never beer.
Peter O'Toole:Red or white?
Kelly Vere:I love both, but I'd go for white if given the choice.
Peter O'Toole:Sauvignon Blanc or anything else?
Kelly Vere:Blanca only if it's New Zealand.
Peter O'Toole:Do you realize you're so particular on the the New Zealand
Kelly Vere:side? Yeah. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. Chocolate or cheese? Chocolate. Milk or dark?
Kelly Vere:Milk.
Peter O'Toole:Cadbury's or other?
Kelly Vere:Cadbury's.
Peter O'Toole:Good Midlander. For those on the international audience, Cadbury's chocolate is made in the Midlands. Actually not far away not far from where I was brought up. What is your favorite food?
Kelly Vere:If you
Peter O'Toole:if you were to be taken out on a conference or something else, what would be the best thing they could in front of you? What if you're just like, oh,
Kelly Vere:I know.
Peter O'Toole:Do you know what
Kelly Vere:I love doing if it was that sort of scenario? I love going to. You know, like, the social aspect of of sharing with me or with friends or colleagues. I love that, so I go tapas. Little bit of a
Peter O'Toole:Okay. Okay. So okay. So now you've got all the tapas. What is the one tapas you really wouldn't want to have put in front of you?
Peter O'Toole:What is your worst food or your nightmare food?
Kelly Vere:Shellfish.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. You could be shellfish. Just tell me what it is now.
Kelly Vere:I'm not a seafood fan, Pete. I'm not a seafood fan.
Peter O'Toole:It's okay. T, TV or book? Book. Oh, you reading anything at the moment?
Kelly Vere:Yeah. I am, actually. One of my team, oh, was really kind, bought me a book. It's called the Apollo Murders. So it's like the murder mystery but based on the moon.
Kelly Vere:So I'm not I'm not very far into it yet, but, yeah.
Peter O'Toole:I I'm just getting a sense that, you know, there's never gonna be many people on the moon. So it's only gonna be 1 of 3 people, isn't it?
Kelly Vere:1 of 3 people have been to the moon, please.
Peter O'Toole:But if one's died, that leaves 2. That's not really it's it's become a bird of mystery.
Kelly Vere:I'm not far into it, but I thought that was really kind.
Peter O'Toole:Do you have any TV vices? Any trash TV that you like to chill out to?
Kelly Vere:I really enjoyed watching The Crown, actually, particularly the 3rd season. That was really fascinating. Yeah. That's
Peter O'Toole:not quite so trashy. Maybe it went to be that way, but that that's that's not that respectable, isn't it, I think? What about your favorite film?
Kelly Vere:I love Apollo 13, She's probably not surprised to you with it given that I've gone on about space quite a bit. I love Apollo 13. I bet everybody says short shrank redemption. I love that.
Peter O'Toole:No. I don't think I know. I don't think so. I think maybe one person said short shrank redemption in all the episodes. So, no, I I think, Apollo 13 is also a first.
Peter O'Toole:That that's good. Star Trek or Star Wars then?
Kelly Vere:Neither.
Peter O'Toole:Neither. Am I? You don't like either of them?
Kelly Vere:I've not seen them.
Peter O'Toole:You've not seen them?
Kelly Vere:Nope. Oh, actually, I might have seen one Star Wars film, the one with the romance in it.
Peter O'Toole:Oh, don't ask me. I don't watch Star Wars. Yeah. I've watched much better.
Kelly Vere:I don't I don't I don't know them, Pete. Don't know.
Peter O'Toole:I know. I've watched 123 when I was a child, and it never really grabbed me. But Star Trek? Oh, no.
Kelly Vere:No. I think my dad is in Star Trek, actually. But, no, I'm neither. I mean, I don't I'm not really a massive science fiction person despite the book I'm reading.
Peter O'Toole:No. No. No. Don't. I'd go with that.
Peter O'Toole:Just Star Trek. I just just in the there's a bit of reality to Star Trek, I think. It's not it's not too far fetched.
Kelly Vere:Okay. I'll have a look.
Peter O'Toole:On saying that, does yeah. Okay. I'll I'll just open myself up to loads of criticism for saying that, so I'm not gonna say that at all. It's not quite true. What about your favorite Christmas film?
Kelly Vere:Oh, what's the one, this one for life?
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. Okay. And perfect color?
Kelly Vere:Depends on what it is. Like, I like bright colors, but if it was like if I was buying clothes, I'd probably go for more opaque colors. So it depends what the context is, Pete.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. You see, you said you were a microscopist earlier on. The answer should have been GFP or Alexa 488 or rhodamine or DAPI. Absolutely. And you come up with what you would wear.
Kelly Vere:Nothing wrong with that.
Peter O'Toole:So where do you see the the the technical skills and strategy that the institute is now up and running? Where do you see what's the next biggest challenge? What's the big hurdle to overcome?
Kelly Vere:Okay. So I think I'm confident that we can demonstrate that the commitment, the talent program, all the institutions that engage with those have really started to deliver progress and impact, but we need to embed some of that progress and impact more widely across the sector. So I guess some some of the examples I'm thinking of are, the research technical professional pathway that we've seen launch at a public university here in the UK, so Liverpool, Warwick, Nottingham are working on that as well as well as well as a few others. That's wonderful. So it's promotional pathway for technical specialists all the way up to professor of equivalence.
Kelly Vere:We've seen institutions here in the UK get technical specialist professor of practice titles which is you know that I've been a technician 25 years this year and you know I never thought I'd see that in my career. It's been wonderful to see those pathways continue to be innovated, but we need to sort of spread them, embed them more widely. I guess another example of impact that we're really pleased about is some of the work we've been doing with UKRI, and that is around, you know, specific calls, for example, for research technical professionals to apply for funding. So we've had the recent recent call by EPSRC. We you do a lot of work with BBSRC, don't you, which is, you know, incredibly inclusive of technical staff now.
Kelly Vere:But I think there's work to go with some of the other funders, so I think there's some work to
Peter O'Toole:do there. We actually MRC in there as well. MRC, you've got
Kelly Vere:Absolutely. No. I've been doing some work with MRC lately as well, and I know AHRC, you know, not forgetting our technical colleagues in the arts and humanities. They've been doing some great work as well. So I think there's a lot more to do, not necessarily with the UKRI funding bodies, but with some of the other funders to, you know, be truly inclusive of of technical staff in that space.
Kelly Vere:And I guess a big hurdle for me that's upcoming is, we've had 3 years worth of money to establish the institute, but I need to ensure that this institute continues beyond that printing period. So sustainability of the institutes are key thing.
Peter O'Toole:What are you, Rane? How is there a sustainable model where universities put in funds to be members of it or other institutes pay a membership fee, which in the current financial climate could be really hard? Or do you think it's gonna have to be going back to the the government and getting more funding grant funding for it? I think
Kelly Vere:it'll be a mixed funding approach, to be honest, Pete. I mean, we're still in the early days of working out what that's gonna look like, but for example we have, a research sort of policy centre here at the institute, so you can see there could be grant funding, there could be commissioned work, and there'll be some consultancy. We have a number of flagship leadership courses, which at the minute are free to access, but further down the line may have to incur a charge. We we wouldn't like to do that, but it might be a way of ensuring that we can continue to deliver the quality provision for the I mean, she says a number of things being considered.
Peter O'Toole:I think it's it's a very good point because, yeah, thinking about as Liverpool and what they've set up and put through, and credit to all the Liverpool team there. Rolling that out at other universities and trying to recreate the wheel seems a waste. And, actually, I wonder if there's a there's a plot roles we play there that Saul could go in and actually help these students to adopt.
Kelly Vere:No. There is. There is. We we are launching a new technical pathways lab here at the institute, which is exactly that, supporting institutions to implement those pathways.
Peter O'Toole:So I think that that would be that again generates the revenue to to offset it. Of all the conferences and meetings, what's your favorite conference?
Kelly Vere:My favorite conference? This is a trick question. Am I supposed to say
Peter O'Toole:I'm
Kelly Vere:trying to think, oh, what conferences have you organized people that I've been at? No.
Peter O'Toole:No. No. No. No. No.
Kelly Vere:Oh, I I love all it's just wonderful, isn't it? I love going to meeting people and, you know, getting to talk about the great work the team are doing and see colleagues. I don't think I could pick out a single favorite. I'm very much looking forward to TSN. We're hosting the technology network, specialist network conference, aren't we, in Bath in April?
Kelly Vere:And I love, as I've already mentioned, the Herschel conference that we have. And, of course, the summit, the higher education, you know, summit. There's there's a there's too many to choose from, Peter, the hard question.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. So so throughout all of these, and it's not just the conferences, you also get invited to talk at lots of different, meetings to universities, to institutes, at other meetings that are not necessarily direct on it. How much time do you spend traveling?
Kelly Vere:Quite a bit. Quite a bit, and I guess, you know, as this work takes on an increasingly international sort of profile. I'd imagine that might ramp up a little bit more, but I spend quite a lot of time in in London especially with working with the Gatsby Foundation who've been tremendous supporter of this work, working with the Science Council and so forth with organizations like the Royal Society and the Royal Circuit of Chemistry and the Institute of Physics. So, yeah, I spent quite a bit of time on trades.
Peter O'Toole:And but but also, I imagine there are a lot of nights in hotels. Mhmm. And again, you've got children.
Kelly Vere:Mhmm.
Peter O'Toole:Do they ever complain?
Kelly Vere:No. I think they get it. They get it. I try and minimize it as much, you know, so it doesn't impact them as much as I can and actually, I'm giving, a conference talk in Sweden in May no. June, sorry, this year, and, actually, my son will have just finished his GCSE, so he's coming with me.
Kelly Vere:He's gonna go. So it's kinda nice, you know, that we can do that sort of stuff together.
Peter O'Toole:That would that would be that would be kind of cool. Take him take him up there, Sweden. And then he's gotta listen to you.
Kelly Vere:Yeah. He has to just sit quietly at the back.
Peter O'Toole:And I think we're nearly up to the hour. I'm gonna ask, is there anything that you regret? You know, that you go back and wish if you know, if you could go back, would you change? Any regrets throughout your career?
Kelly Vere:I don't think regrets are such because I'm not sort of I'm not really a regrets type of person. I think we should look forward, not backward. I guess the one example we discussed at the beginning of this conversation was, you know, I really regret not working harder for my a levels, but actually if I hadn't got the results that I've got that probably wouldn't have instilled the work ethic that led me to do all the different things. So, no. I'm not really regretting.
Peter O'Toole:I did wonder if you pick out your rate levels. And, no. I I surely, that was probably the best thing that could have happened.
Kelly Vere:It was.
Peter O'Toole:Because that's what kicked everything off, and that that was kind of the, I guess, the point of crystallization, wasn't it? And that's where everything's growing from is at with those a levels. How much did you enjoy your time doing a levels?
Kelly Vere:I probably should have spent my time doing the a levels more than I did discovering nightclubs at some point.
Peter O'Toole:So you enjoyed yourself a lot during that. So I'll ask you what the most raised a fun time in your career. It might have been the a level. But that but but you're absolutely right not to regret it because look what it's done and shows what you can do even if you fail at one point. It's not fair, but you know what I mean?
Peter O'Toole:Not get to it. That can be the inspiration to go forward. Vera Richard Grant and got it rejected. That to shake her. The head saying no.
Peter O'Toole:I know. I know.
Kelly Vere:I'm super lucky. I'm super lucky. I'm sure I will at some point very soon. But, no, I've been incredibly fortunate.
Peter O'Toole:I've just submitted one writing another 2. Can you write my other 2 for me?
Kelly Vere:I don't think I'm a lucky charm, Pete.
Peter O'Toole:I I think it shows the content. The topic that you're going for had a fairly high degree of novelty at the time. And I'm not even gonna say right place, right time because I don't think the time was there. I think you created the right time. I don't think people were shouting out for it any louder than they were 10, 15, 20, 30, 40 years ago.
Peter O'Toole:But you you made that time point.
Kelly Vere:That that's really kind. But I think, to be fair, what also happened was, you know, all this work sort of crystallized at a time where, you know, Otterleen came in as chief exec of UKRI, and and she'd done a lot of work on research culture and being inclusive of all roles and the ecosystem. You know? So that chimed well, I think, with the direction the funding bodies at the time, but I think it there was a little bit about it being the right time too, but thank you, Pete. That's
Peter O'Toole:I yeah. And and, obviously, was one of my go to's at York, early in my career and was very influential. And, actually, I think choose 1. And her and Debbie Smith both encouraged me to write my first grant application even though I was not a classic academic. And they said, no.
Peter O'Toole:No. You should lead it. Before, it was front and center that you can write applications. They said, no. No.
Peter O'Toole:No. Makes sense. And we were successful with that. That's for a scanning electron microscope, a Joel 6490. You see, I remember my microscopes.
Kelly Vere:I do remember mine, I think.
Peter O'Toole:My success rate isn't as good. It's it's it's it's respect.
Kelly Vere:You'll have written a lot more than me, I'm sure.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. But I wish I hadn't. Some of them Some of them, you know, when you send it off, sometimes they sing, sometimes they don't.
Kelly Vere:See, that's the way of it though, isn't it? That's what makes it interesting.
Peter O'Toole:It is. But that that is up to the hour. I haven't even arched you if you've got any hobbies. So go, I'm gonna ask. Finally, in the last minute, do you have any hobbies?
Kelly Vere:Love theater. Love dinner with friends. Reading, fine wine. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:As long as it's a New Zealand song you're on log.
Kelly Vere:As long as it's a New Zealand song you're on, we're all good.
Peter O'Toole:So I I'm gonna say, thank you to everyone who's watched or listened, and please do subscribe. And, actually, Ottaline, does talk about technician's commitment in her recording, which was a couple of years ago. So go back, listen to those. There's also plenty of other examples throughout you. But, Kelly, you've been a massive influence.
Peter O'Toole:Huge influence on so many people's careers. And I have seen, at other universities, people's jobs change and be recognized for what they're doing that I don't think would otherwise have happened if it hasn't been around that that time point in those movements. I and so I don't know if you realize just how big an impact you're having and will have going forward. And on behalf of all the community, thank you very much, and thank you for joining the Microscopist today.
Kelly Vere:Thanks, Dee. Good to see you.
Intro/Outro:Thank you for listening to The Microscopists, a bite sized bio podcast sponsored by Zeiss Microscopy. To view all audio and video recordings from this series, please visit bitesizebio.comforward/themicrosoftopists.
