Michael Dustin (The Kennedy Institute of Rheumatology)
Welcome to The Microscopists, a bite sized bio podcast hosted by Peter O'Toole, sponsored application Institute of Rheumatology, and he talks about how he tweaked his grant applications that made all the difference to getting them funded.
Michael Dustin:And then we went from, you know, almost like that kind of triage point to getting, like, the top score in a grand round when it worked.
Peter O'Toole:Where the convention for naming antibodies came from.
Michael Dustin:So one molecule might have 20 names based on different people making these antibodies, so they decided to get together, all of the people who are making antibodies and analyzing these surface molecules, exchange the antibodies. And this started the CD thing, which some, you know, CD 1 through. Now they're into the 100.
Peter O'Toole:And which is best, at Twitter
Michael Dustin:or LinkedIn for networking and science communication? Twitter, x type thing. You know, I have an account, and and and I'll tweet papers, like, you know, preprints and things. But but, you know, basically, most of the real utility comes from from LinkedIn here.
Peter O'Toole:All in this episode
Michael Dustin:of the Mycross Twist.
Peter O'Toole:Hi. Welcome to the Mycross Twist. I'm Peter O'Toole from the University of York. And today, I'm joined by Michael from the University of Oxford. Mike, how are you today?
Michael Dustin:Fantastic. Thanks, Pete.
Peter O'Toole:Actually, I should probably introduce you a bit better as a groundbreaking famous immunologist that we're now very lucky to have over here in the UK. And that's when you go red and get dyed.
Michael Dustin:Of course. Yeah. No. It's been great. It's been great being here.
Michael Dustin:I've been here 10 years now at University of Oxford, and, yeah, it's been it's been fantastic. I've really been enjoying my, it's almost like a, like our our you know, one of the things that enabled my wife and I to do this was by our daughter getting to kind of college age and and and leaving home and things. And, you know, so we had, like, this empty nest and kind of, but just decided, okay. We can be postdocs again and basically go off and do something totally different, which has been our pretty much our last, yeah, last 10 years.
Peter O'Toole:So your wife is also a scientist?
Michael Dustin:Yeah. Yeah. So, actually, we're both working at the University of Oxford. You know, previously, we'd had, you know, worked in different academic institutions in the same cities in Saint Louis and and New York. But, you know, in in Oxford, basically, we were initially in different institute buildings.
Michael Dustin:I was I was at the Kennedy Institute. She was at the Meadowlark, and now we actually both work at the Kennedy. So so, yeah, again, this is something we're both really kind of enjoying, you know, I guess, learning learning about Oxford and learning about, you know, doing research in a different setting. It's been, enjoyed. Very enjoyable.
Peter O'Toole:And and I say actually, so let's stay on this point then. You say you're enjoying Oxford, getting to know Oxford. How are you finding coming over to the UK culturally?
Michael Dustin:Yeah. You know, like the, it's in we work in in English, but, of course, you know, a lot of the, you know, little sort of expressions and things and way people, you know, use language are subtly different. So so, you know, I guess I've had to, you know, kind of recalibrate to, you understanding when I'm being told no indirectly or, yes, I'm very excited about that. Just trying to figure you know, sort out sort out sometimes, like, what kind of reaction I'm getting. But the, you know, I I think in general, like, Oxford's been like a a new playground, you know, kind of scientifically and also culturally.
Michael Dustin:Like, I'm affiliated with the college for the past couple years, which has been a really interesting experience with the Brasenose College. And, you know, so that's sort of you know, I'm in a research institute. So in a lot of ways, you know, my research more or less has been, you know, doing research in different exciting places, and this is, you know, like a new exciting place to do research. It was, yeah, different colleagues, different specific opportunities and things. But, you know, I mean, you know, the the the teaching system in in Oxford is really different than the teaching system I experienced, say, at Boston University as an undergrad.
Michael Dustin:So I was in these, you know, like, huge lectures and these, you know, kind of the there were discussion sections, but it was kind of it was it was really kind of not the kind of, you know, tutorial system that Oxford and and Cambridge, use where they're, you know, really getting together with, and and kind of customizing that educational experience. So I haven't, you know, done tutorials yet, but this is now something I'm getting, you know, kind of, hopefully I will before, you know, well, now that I'm not affiliated with the college, and get a chance to, you know, learn about this, you know, different way of, you know, enriching, you know, undergraduate education. And I think yeah. And I I'm really also a strong believer in, you know, getting into labs early, and and having, you know, kind of hands on research experience at the undergraduate level. And I'm and I'm trying to sort of, you know, see if I can, you know, pitch this also to the to the folks at Praising House and and to kind of maybe increase opportunities for that early experience, which maybe, you know, is again, maybe considered difficult to fit into the curriculum in a, in in in, say, you know, Oxford's programs.
Michael Dustin:So so, again, it's it's something that I may I'm kind of interested in maybe, you know, seeing although, you know, obviously, this is a 1000 year old institution and things. I'm probably not gonna have too much of an impact on how they do things. But at the same time, yeah, I'm I'm interested in trying to to tweak, you know, little things about, about how how they might, you know, provide those experiences, which, you know, were so formative for me.
Peter O'Toole:Well, it's interesting you say that. Just last week, we interviewed for summer studentships, at York. We've got something called Generation Research, which Gillian Barlow's running at York. And the quality of the students. And, actually, it was the sum of this.
Peter O'Toole:It was the 2nd year students really shown through, and they won't have had much lab experience. They'll have had some big lab experience from not, you know, getting into it. And, it was really tough. They were mind blowingly good. And I think the summer studentships, it opens their it probably changes their career path because they get to really understand research during that time.
Peter O'Toole:And I think it then boosts their their 3rd 4th year because they're now more motivated, got a better appreciation of it. A top do you know? Maybe find more of a passion and love for science. I've got to say these students already seem to love it, but I do think and the nice thing about generation research is they're kind of almost blind CVs. So you don't get to know who they are and they're funded.
Peter O'Toole:So so they can afford to do the studentships. That was really cool. But actually we had one really cool student. Well, we had 3 really cool ones, and we had to flip a coin, pick 1. And I think I've just found funding from somewhere else to get a second in.
Peter O'Toole:But do you do student ships, summer student ships in the labs?
Michael Dustin:You know, the, the medical students have this program they're called, FHS program, so so they kind of they do have a, you know, 2 months or so for research in their medical curriculum. Otherwise, it would vary quite a bit by department in terms of you know, biochemistry has some, you know, kind of also some research opportunities and things, but you know the thing that I, again, I kind of really benefited from as an undergraduate was being able to kind of follow a project for, like, 2 years, and it wasn't obviously full time. It was really kind of quite part time by when it was possible to to come into the lab and things. But it was, you know, it really, I think that's really different than even, like, something where you have, like, a summer or something. So so, again, like, that, kind of, you know, thing where you can, you know, from, like, maybe 2nd year, bring together, you know, a, you know and, again, it's it's it might not be for everyone, but, you know, for people who really feel like they've gotten that, you know, bug for doing research, to have that opportunity to, you know, connect up these experiences as opposed to having them as, you know, multiple isolated internships or something.
Michael Dustin:So again, it's, you know but I know recognizing that that's that my you know, unique and and worked out. But I but I know other people, say, when I was at Boston University, like, other other people were, you know, kind of doing that also. It was kind of just getting started after, you know, maybe like, I had cell biology as a course in 2nd year and then basically really got really excited about cell biology and then kind of, you know, just just approached the PI and the, you know, the professor from the course. And he basically said, you want to do research in the lab, don't you? And I was like, I suppose.
Michael Dustin:Yeah. And and he kind of then just captured me and kind of, pulled me in and and and really helped me along, really kind of a quite, you know, maybe something on the order of, 5 to 10 hours a week or something, but but, you know and then with some interruption, some breaks, but then otherwise letting me kind of, you know, get go through a whole thing and actually write a paper at the end and stuff that we published in a peer review journal, and it was like you know, it was an opportunity. So, whether all that can be, you know, put into a program, or or do you just sort of enable it? You know? And I think in that case, it was really kind of informally enabled.
Michael Dustin:There was, like, a senior thesis project that was, of course, that basically I then fed into that already with quite a bit of work under my belt before that even, you know, thesis, kind of senior thesis thing started.
Peter O'Toole:Could just be a case of allowing it to happen.
Michael Dustin:Yeah. Yeah. I think that would be and and and maybe just having, an, you know, like an, an interest and, you know, like you say, like you like you have a funding mechanism for some of the summer work, that would be that that could be quite important because I I remember, you know, living off of, like, $500 a month, you know, in Boston while doing some of this, you know, kind of summer work in the lab there. And, you know, even shunning other jobs that would have, you know, probably been more that would have probably paid better. But, you know, essentially just wanting to get back into the lab and and and do that, even if it was sort of, you know, relying somewhat on, you know, kind of, still input from parents and things to be able to afford it.
Michael Dustin:But, you know, at any rate, I mean, I think I think, you know, some mixture between, you know, if if if the model that you're driving could also connect up with some, you know, if it's in if it's in the same university, you know, like, an ability of the student to basically come back and kinda continue things if there was a strong interest and, you know, might might be might might set set the, you know, set the stage for, you know, someone then from this undergraduate stage really developing almost kinda like a master's like project and then, you know, being able to segue into a PhD without you would have too much additional, you know, you know, lab training or experience.
Peter O'Toole:That's like a long term internship, almost sort of a long thing internship throughout that period. So how how how have you found living in the UK? So outside of the science, how have you found that side? Is is that is that being very different? Was it was it unnerving actually?
Peter O'Toole:Oh, come on. You should take it
Michael Dustin:as We went we've had very different, you know, kind of, like, I grew up in the Hudson Valley, in a town called Poughkeepsie, which is also kind of a college town. It's a little bit it reminds me quite a bit of Oxford because it's kind of a medium sized city, industrial city. Like, they had a lot of IBM, you know, basically, so kind of computer manufacturing and things and design. So very a lot of technology oriented things, but also Vassar College is there. So it was kind of it's sort of and then surrounded by farms and kind of countryside and, of course, all the, you know, the Catskill Mountains and things like that.
Michael Dustin:So so it was kind of like this sort of nice mix of sort of, like, rural and city. And, you know, so but then we went to, Boston, St. Louis, New York City, lived in Manhattan for 10 years, 13 years actually, before moving to Oxford. So going from Manhattan to Oxford was quite a change in lifestyle, no matter how you slice it or things. I mean, kind of like a unique urban experience to to a much more, you know, kind of, again, like the sort of medium sized city, with with you know, very heavily influenced by a college.
Michael Dustin:So, but, you know, we have great neighbors here. So we have a house in North Oxford, and we kind of you know, our our neighbors are really great. So, yes, one of them is was is academic. 1 of them, you know, a former Oxford chair, and one of them was, you know, basically just people like a a guy who had a garden, built business and things. But, you know, and and, you know, just wonderful people and, you know, so, enjoyed those interactions and and and others and other and also just, you know, it's a very international community.
Michael Dustin:So, like, our institute, I would say, is less than half of the PIs are probably were originally based in the UK. They've really come from all over it. So so we don't really have much, you know, feeling of there's there's a kind of a transition, I suppose, between, you know, the, you know, being a fully expat like and not having these connections to, you know, you get the sort of you know, very familiar aspects of international science, which I also, we also had at other universities we worked at. So, again, like, the you know, so it's not such a shocking thing, but, you know, I mean, some things are, you know, just kind of, you know, different about, you know, kind of, but I think in a in a in a charming, pleasant way, I think, you know, particularly for the, let's say, Oxford area.
Peter O'Toole:And, so you said was your daughter, you said, that went to university? Yeah.
Michael Dustin:So so, you know, my our our daughter, you know, is, you know, back in the US still and is actually kind of returning to school now. So so she, you know, didn't finish college. She was when she reached college age, you know, she did we you know, she she, you know, decided she, you know, didn't wanna do, you know, university at that point or or go to college. She, you know, basically has an interest in in kind of veterinary 3rd bright kid veterinary. Was working at that point in kind of a vet tech kind of direction in New York.
Michael Dustin:And, and then she, the you know, kind of met the love of her life as a, zoopathologist and and basically then started going around with his training in there in Kansas City, New Hampshire, and Pittsburgh for a while, and now they're settled outside Washington, DC, which is actually quite convenient because I I visit Washington a lot and do various things, and and that that, you know, gives us an opportunity to see to see her more. But essentially, yeah. So she's she's going back to school now, kind of, in in in a in a biology area, probably maybe with an interest in long term interest in medical school or, you know, veterinary pursuits. But that would be you know, that's something that she's doing, you know, maybe what one might call a as a mature student, in in the UK.
Peter O'Toole:That I just have a chance to ask, so how often do you actually get back to see her? Because that's the other side. It's one thing when your child flares a nest, but actually still wanna kind of see them and be close and, of
Michael Dustin:course Of course. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Dustin:So this was why, you know, when when you when you, you know, look back on things, you say, oh, it's so easy to get back and forth between the US and the UK, and, you know, we had a my lab was maybe initially 5050 from 2013 to 2015 or so, so we were going back and forth all the time in New York, and she was in New York, so yeah, again, we were seeing her all the time. But then, with the pandemic in 2020, it kind of changed that whole thing, and also that was, you know, so this is when her and her husband Ryan were kind of, you know, bouncing around to all these different places. So we never visited them in Kansas City. We never visited them in New Hampshire because it happened in this time frame where there was just very little travel. And, and now now that, you know, when they were we we we did get to visit when they were in, Pittsburgh and, you know, kind of now now catch catch up pretty regularly that they're in the DC area.
Michael Dustin:It's quite easy. So so again, it was, yeah, it was there are all kinds of things we didn't anticipate, like, you know, Brexit, you know, Trump, maybe Trump 2. This is, like, you know, all these things that are sort of, you know, so we were it was the clip that we left. It's a, you know, value left. So so, you know, the the world's a surprising place.
Michael Dustin:And and I guess but, you know, we we roll with these things and, we use Zoom a lot, you know, basically, for our communication during the pandemic and, to to, you know, stay in touch.
Peter O'Toole:So I tried to actually thinking of, the world changing and everything else. Going back into the research side of things, funding obviously is changing, always evolving, and the funding, I mean, is the world changing. And over in the UK, obviously, it's very competitive. You have to write your grant proposals to get your funding. So I believe were you welcome trust funded to start?
Peter O'Toole:Are you still welcome trust funded?
Michael Dustin:Yes. So so the, our original recruitment was with a Wellcome Trust principal research fellowship. So it was like which is like an amazing opportunity. And and that really, you know, was 7 7, 8 years of the transition. It was really kind of like the the start up package for transition in the lab from NYU to, to Oxford along with, you know, support from so so the Kennedy Institute, is a research institute within within Oxford.
Michael Dustin:It moved from Imperial College in where it was affiliated with Imperial College in London to to Oxford in a new research building in 2013, and that's when we arrived. So the, you know, the Kennedy Trust Rheumatology Research is a charity that basically was a beneficiary of patent royalties from patents related to tumor necrosis factor based targeted therapies that were, you know, kind of developed. I mean, interestingly, like, the antibody that was the original, like, anti TNF, you know, that was used in the clinical trials that were run by, you know, the Kennedy Institute, was made by Jan Vilcek, at NYU. So so when I was at NYU in the, you know, 2000s, there was this, you know, huge windfall of money from the licensing of that antibody and and the patents that were generated around, you know, you know, kind of dealing with the anti drug antibody effects in, you know, administering antibodies as a long term therapy, generated lots of revenues for the, you know, essentially Imperial, when Kennedy was there and and the the Kennedy Trust Rheumatology Research, which is kind of the charity that supported the Kennedy Institute from the 1970s, so kind of been investing in that for long term.
Michael Dustin:And the institute is kind of a reinvestment of of those funds. So so it's kind of so so from a funding standpoint, you know, the Kennedy Institute is a long term project of the Kennedy Trust Rheumatology Research, and we we benefit from that quite a bit. And, you know, but but it's a you know, it's basically, they're a funder. We write grants, and this is similar with the Wellcome Trust. And, you know, I have to say, I I guess right.
Michael Dustin:I think, you know, in the US, I would say, you know, the NIH pay lines and things fluctuate over time, but otherwise, the system is very stable. Like, the funding, you know, platform has really you know, maybe the biggest thing that would have changed in my lifetime maybe was the emergence of the Howard Hughes Medical Institute as a major funder. And and I guess at the same time, I guess, like, the Wellcome Trust became a major funder in the UK but is a bigger percentage of UK funding than, say, HHMI or something in the US. So clearly, when the Wellcome Trust changes its mind about something, that has a huge impact on research in the UK, and it really forces, like, lots of people to re calibrate and kind of imagine things. So, yeah, so I think I feel like the funding landscape in the in the UK is and also, you know, with the ERC, like, our relationship with the ERC, we've we've gotten we've benefited from significant ERC funding also.
Michael Dustin:We had an advanced grant and have a synergy grant now. And even navigating the Brexit process created quite a bit of volatility and uncertainty. But, you know, again, it seemed like the best bet at that point was just to keep writing those grants, to keep submitting grants to that organization, And there have been different ways that they've been funded over time, over the past few years, but they've always been funded if they were competitive in that system. So so I think I think the bottom line is you just keep writing print, and that's and as long as you're happy with that and that process of thinking about things and writing and discussing with people, that that's part of the job in some ways. It's not just a way to get funding, but it's also part of the you know, process that you use to basically innovate and, you know, you're challenged in some ways to innovate and keep keep moving forward.
Michael Dustin:But, you know, as long as you can kind of be at peace with that, then then I think I think it's actually a a healthy system.
Peter O'Toole:So so I I should just probably I just realized my pen is actually from Howard Hughes. It's from Janelia. So it's it's just Yeah.
Michael Dustin:Right. And I think right. And and and certainly, HHMI has been a model for, you know, things that say, Walton has done over time and, you know, but it but, you know, I think every let's say, it seems as an organization like Walton, maybe every 10, 15 years or something, asks, okay. Is what we're doing the right thing? And then, you know, basically shakes things up, and and I guess, you know, you could say in some ways in terms of, like, you know, you see some costs in terms of some, you know, continuity and, you know, say, individual organizations being able to maintain certain kind of skills and things may be challenged a bit.
Michael Dustin:But, you know, I mean, in general, I think the you know, scientists are, you know, adaptable by nature maybe is one of the one of the phenotypes that we select for, and and you, you know, kind of Yeah. You know, you work with it.
Peter O'Toole:I think the most successful academics are are very good at moving and adapting. It's a critical aspect, I think, in academia to be able to adapt and evolve, with with the funding models, which which can feel instinctively wrong for some because they're they're very naturally keen or their passion is one area. And sometimes you have to evolve that area to fit how the funding is going. So I I actually have a different question. Have you, how often do you do your grant proposals fail?
Michael Dustin:You know, probably over time, you know, like, our eventual success rate with revisions is probably okay. It's probably might be more than 50%, but individually, in terms of individual grants and whether they get funded or not, you know, in a way, you might almost say, for my NIH period and other things, that it may almost be closer to almost like the what you might say, like, random chance, like closer to the pay line. Because, you know, I guess, you know, early on, I I did struggle to get my first NIH funding when I was just starting my lab in, at Wash U. And, you know, so I guess one one important thing was that the, Emily Nanaway, who I chair at that point, and Steve Teuteltam, who was kind of like a, you know, we I was kind of sitting between 2 departments, and they were the they were the heads of those departments. And, you know, they supported us.
Michael Dustin:They they kept they they, you know, sort of gave us they they put us under some pressure, but, you know, they did they did they did support, what I was trying to do in my group and saw that there was something there. And, you know, so we went from getting, like, you know, the idea that we were pitching. Maybe we weren't quite communicating it properly or whatever, but, you know, when it when it wasn't when it was an idea and we were kind of building up the underpinning, you know, kind of, technical elements of it, we were getting, like, you know, triage, which would mean, you know, in the NIH system US system would be lower 50%. And then we went from, you know, almost like that kind of triage point to getting, like, the top score in a grant round when it worked. You know?
Michael Dustin:So that was sort of, you know and, again, like, people I've I've talked to, you know, kind of just informally spoken with people who, you know, saw this development, you know, from, say, like, the study section side or something. I'm supposed to talk about these things. But, you know, again, it was, like, many years later and kind of just just sort of in a general way saying, you know, wow. That was really interesting to see that because, you know, they were trying to decide, like, is this something that, you know, we can support or we should support or it looks interesting, but it's you know, we don't quite get it. And then, you know, eventually, you're saying, oh, that's what they were trying to do, and then realizing, okay.
Michael Dustin:That's actually okay. So so so holding on to that point was a bit of a you know, there's a bit of a cliff edge there, but it it did, it did eventually connect.
Peter O'Toole:If you never got that funding, you know, well, it's career making, isn't it? And to have got those results, which I guess I guess I'm presuming is around the super mac super molecular structures of their synapse, immune synapse.
Michael Dustin:Yeah. Right. Right. Exactly. So this was this kind of, you know, paper, that was published in Science in 1999.
Michael Dustin:And when that was, you know, when that data even before the paper was published, when that data went into the grant so so there's always, like, this kind of grantsmanship thing about between preliminary data, which isn't published yet, and the data that's published, which you've already done, and therefore you can't write for funding for. And so so I believe we we had that data in the grant before the while we were, like, in in in revision for the paper, and the so the then, basically, the paper was both, you know, well reviewed, and the you know, at that point, that work in the grant was seemed like, oh, okay. That's what they're trying to do. So so it was kind of, yeah. So so it was our sort of, you know, so it was kind of like a eureka moment that was actually shared with all of these, you know, kind of, you know, pure peers, basically, who were who, you know, we all we all know each other and things, and it's sort of just, you know, they were just trying to understand what I was what I was going on about with these supported bilayers and things, and where where is this gonna go?
Michael Dustin:Was it just sort of like a sort of like a a niche biophysical tool, or was it something that would actually impact the way people think about these things? So,
Peter O'Toole:that's interesting. You know, you talk amongst your peers and your peers are judging whether it was. So that suggests you're quite well networked even in an early stage of your career. So how important would you say networking is and what's the best what is the best way to network today?
Michael Dustin:Oh, yeah. So I guess as a as a student, so I worked with a, you know, like, kind of a a guy who was an assistant professor, so it was really his lab was in an early stage, but he was clearly on an upward trend. And you and again, like, for us, he had a transformative technology. And so as a so as Tim Springer so as a student, he was he worked with Jack Strawinger. So, again, so he was, like, well connected in the, you know, say, power structure of, you know, immunology in the 19 seventies and eighties, so so clearly working with, you know, a very very highly well known scientist.
Michael Dustin:And his work was you know, he did outstanding work as a student. But then he he did a postdoc with, Cesar Millstein in the UK. So so, again and that's kind of what in a way, one of my early connections with the UK was that, you know, these people that I was, you know, working with early on did a lot of their, say, postdoctoral research in Europe at that time, and, you know, working with these giants of, you know, in various fields. And, he learned how to make monoclonal antibodies, and Mil Sands Levy then came back to Harvard and basically started making antibodies to things and made antibody monoclonal antibodies to a number of adhesion molecules used by lymphocytes for cell cell communication. And, you know, the problem that it was in front of the groups that I was working with as an undergraduate was purifying membrane proteins, like receptors that were involved in cell cell communication, was a huge challenge.
Michael Dustin:And just being able to do conventional biochemical purification was really impossible, just too expensive and and and would never really would never work because of the heterogeneity, physical heterogeneity of the molecules. But these monoclonal antibodies, 1 step, million fold purification. So so, you know, when I was a student and basically started planning with that as just doing a lab rotation with him, it was like, oh my god. They've solved this huge problem that that, you know, my undergraduate lab was basically destroyed by in some ways. You know, really, like, I guess they they got grants to do this, and then they couldn't do it because of the, challenges of of purifying these proteins and these, like, detergent extracts and things.
Michael Dustin:So so so, again, it was like the the networking thing came in from getting into a rising an area that was kind of emerging, and then for at least for me then, basically having, you know, early papers in that. So even as a at the beginning of my graduate work, say, I started in, you know, 84, 85, had a paper in 1986, you know, again, using these monoclonal antibodies to characterize one of these adhesion molecules, one of many, you know, now, but maybe an early one at that point. And and then just, you know, starting to go to meetings and just meeting people through, you know, kind of emerging collaborations. Like, these antibodies were great collaboration tools because you could kind of distribute them to people. And this was sort of like in immunology, there were these workshops that they had in the starting in the 1980s where people realizing they had these antibodies, and they were all calling they were all naming the molecules they recognized in just, you know, kind of perfusion of ways that one molecule might have 20 names based on different people making these antibodies.
Michael Dustin:So they decided to get together, all of the people who were making antibodies and analyzing these surface molecules, exchange the antibodies, and this started the CD thing, which some CD1 through now they're into the 100. And this was an early you know, kinda like informatics project. It was like the genome project. It was like the, you know, cell atlas. It was basically a collective thing where people got together, pooled their results, used a clustering framework to basically identify the different antigens, and then publish these in these big books, you know, which you can still probably find in libraries and things.
Michael Dustin:And I think there's even some online access. But but, again, this was, like, a a huge formative thing, and those created enormous networks. So we got lots of you know, we would get antibodies in for because Tim was an antibody producer. He would get these antibodies in. So we have, like, hundreds of little tubes of, you know, kind of these, you know, highly concentrated antibodies, and we would just, you know, do all these experiments.
Michael Dustin:And then we'd go to these, you know, meetings and argue about who should be CD 1 or whatever. You know? I mean, that was, like, when in the one of the initial meetings, they had to decide, okay, who would be, What would the CD want? You know? Like you know?
Michael Dustin:And and this was sort of, you know, somewhat of a political thing, but it was also somewhat of a collective, you know, form, you know, sort of process. So so again, I thought that was, so in my career, that was a networking opportunity. So I suppose, you know, these are still these things are, you know, now going on and probably on an industrial scale. And I think, you know, getting involved with those kinds of things is a is a great way to network in addition to, you know, filtering all of the social media type stuff. But, you know, I think certainly getting together with people who are doing things and have relevant, you know, tools and stuff and and sharing those.
Michael Dustin:Like, even microscopy, say, you know, one can, you know, you know, certainly that work a lot around microscopy technology because different places have different, you know, strengths and things, and you can you know, not not everyone can have everything. So that that can certainly be a way to, you know, connect up with people and say, hey. I've got an experiment. It would be great on your microscope.
Peter O'Toole:Tim, I I had a question, which this leads really quite nicely onto. How competitive would you say the field is? You know, is it a very collegiate field or are there are there different parties? Is it is it is it nicely competitive or is there some aggressive competitiveness in your area at the moment?
Michael Dustin:Yeah. Well, it's interesting because because, I mean, we've worked on, let's say, t cell antigen receptors for a long time. Like and, you know, and and one thing you, you know, you run into in any field is at any particular moment in time, people will have kind of like a working model, and they believe that they fairly well understand what's gonna happen when, you know, when you induce a perturbation. So so when we were looking at these, this kind of immune synapse concept, and this this would involve t cells going from a motile state to stop to stopping. And, you know, so at this so so we had 2 it was interesting, you know, when you when you then kinda just query everyone, what what do you think will happen when a desalcede's antigen, when it sees and it recognizes its proper MHC peptide complex.
Michael Dustin:You know, some people were perfectly happy with what we were seeing, which is that they stopped, but other people were thinking, you know, no, they have to keep moving. And and then there was some in vitro data that would support that. So so it was kind of, you know, interesting. Like, around 1999, 2000, that time frame, you could have a pretty, you know, robust debate about about, you know, basically, which one is which. And and, you know, now nowadays, I mean, there's still a lot of, you know, say, for Oxford, like, one of these, say, Oxford based theories for t cell receptor triggering would be based on movement of CD 45, a large phosphatase, away from the t cell receptor through some, you know, kind of the membranes come close together.
Michael Dustin:This protein with a large exosomein gets pushed out, and that creates an environment where the signaling can basically go forward because the phosphatase is dephosphorylating, and the kinases then can have a chance to, you know, basically build up a signaling complex and condensates and all these kind of things. So so, you know, there's sort of like a a big argument about conformational dynamics of the t cell receptor right now. And and it's kind of interesting because even the tech even as the technology advances and we get better views of what's going on, there's still a controversy. So so you think, eventually, this has to be solved. This people have to basically be able to say, okay.
Michael Dustin:This this is a you know, people have to basically be able to say, okay. This this is a you know, is this like a GPCR that undergoes critical conformational changes, or is it, like, this rigid body that just sets up this short space and then presents these cytoplasmic domains for phosphorylation without actually otherwise changing? And that is still a quite robust argument. And, again, you know, people will declare victory one side or other will declare victory in a certain moment in time based on some new observation, like, say, the cryo EM of the t cell receptor was one such event. And then the, you know, the finding that if you do cryo EM on t cell receptors in detergent micelles, they look exactly the same, like different receptors look exactly the same with or without ligation.
Michael Dustin:But then, you know, if you do now now it's starting to emerge, and, you know, there's a preprintout that basically says that if you do the same structure in a membrane disc with a bilayer, that now it looks like it can actually, you know, exist in a number of states, and that that makes the quality of the data much lower. But it actually, you know, because it's because it's a you're basically trying to catch a falling structure of some kind or, you know, you're looking at something that's actually breathing. But but, you know, I think, again, it's it's, it it continues to be a, you know, like a hot topic, and we're gonna have a meeting in June where we'll have a chance to, you know, see some data from different perspectives and and continue to argue about this.
Peter O'Toole:Which which is why I guess science remains healthy. Mike, I'm gonna change tack and ask some quick fire questions. Okay? So are
Michael Dustin:we the
Peter O'Toole:early bird or night owl?
Michael Dustin:Nite Owl.
Peter O'Toole:Nite Owl? PC
Michael Dustin:or Mac? Mac. Back from 84. So that I was hooked in 84.
Peter O'Toole:McDonald's or Burger King? Neither. What would you choose? The cats choose what what would you choose outside of that for your fast food?
Michael Dustin:I love the, the, like, sort of falafel stands, you know, little truck food trucks, that have, like, the, you know, the lamb and the, you know, sort of mid eastern mid eastern fair, You know, kind of, quite probably equally un not I should probably be able to say, but equally unhealthy, but basically, yeah. Yeah. A little bit more like a mom and pop sort of level. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:Coffee or tea? Coffee.
Michael Dustin:Even even even now I've been in England, you know, it's, yeah, afternoon tea is still not a normal thing.
Peter O'Toole:I'll keep you with coffee. Beer or wine? Sorry? Beer or wine?
Michael Dustin:Oh, you know, either. I would say beer. Okay. If I had to if I had to choose one, but and there was no social pressure. Like, sometimes at a dinner, there's a collective decision, like, okay.
Michael Dustin:You go with a bottle of wine or or beer, and then I I can go either way in that setting. Yep. If the say, if a guest wants to do wine, that's great. Maybe more towards red wine. But, you know, basically, the yeah, if it's just sort of like everyone's doing their own thing, I might I might go with the, you know, like the Belgian ale or something.
Michael Dustin:Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. I'll answer the next bit if it's Belgian ale. Chocolate or cheese?
Michael Dustin:You know, for dessert, probably more towards chocolate.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. UK or US?
Michael Dustin:Oh my. So, you know, I just say UK at the moment. You know? I'm we're here. We're we're all in.
Peter O'Toole:But you you still got a US passport. I'm just checking. You still got
Michael Dustin:a US passport? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Michael Dustin:It's hard to get rid of that. It's actually like a like a like a leech. You know?
Peter O'Toole:TV or book?
Michael Dustin:You know, my wife will probably my wife is more of a book person. I'm probably more of a TV person. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:And, what are you watching?
Michael Dustin:Visual. Like, no no longer TV. It's more like your your computer screen. Sorry?
Peter O'Toole:What are you watching at the moment?
Michael Dustin:You know, we've been doing the 3 body problem. I think we just completed the current set of, the through body problem, which is basically you know, so it's kind of I guess we'd I I I use these, you know, kind of, services quite a bit. You know? But that's a Netflix thing, I guess. But but, you know, so so streaming services.
Michael Dustin:And and, yeah. So, yeah. So we kind of not quite binge watched it, but basically took it in over a period of a few weeks. Yeah. And that that's that's the sort of I've read those books, so so so I guess I did read the books first.
Michael Dustin:But, you know, I was interested to see how they would how they would, you know, basically, present it. And then certainly, it's easier to present something with that kind of scope as a series as opposed to just a single movie.
Peter O'Toole:So is is there any, is there TV or streaming that that that you'd actually that you're gonna confess to even though you don't really wanna confess to watching? Anything really trashy that you enjoy watching?
Michael Dustin:You know, you know, I've done all the John Wick movies.
Peter O'Toole:That's not trash. That's that's
Michael Dustin:That's probably cheap movies. That's that's actually quite that's mainstream. Yeah. Well and, you know, maybe this the equivalent, the equivalent kind of, do them up sort of, trash. You know?
Michael Dustin:The the obviously, the that's the high culture version of it, but there's there's also yeah. So so I I'll some of the some of the streaming when I just wanna unwind with the, you know, in some cases, this kind of, act along those lines.
Peter O'Toole:Which leads nicely onto. What is your favorite film?
Michael Dustin:Oh, like a single favorite film. Yeah. But at least based on things that I've watched a lot of times, I guess, you know, like, you know, the I I kind of I I I I really do like the, yeah, Christopher Nolan films, like, Inception and, you know, I guess and there's one now, that I'm I'm actually gonna blank on the name, but it was basically one of the earlier films with this sort of reverse chronology. I'm just blanking on the name of it, but basically it was something to do with memory, like, Memento or something like that. But but, you know, basically, it was a yeah.
Michael Dustin:So so, you know, essentially, yeah. So probably, you know, I I I've kind of enjoyed some of those things that kind of play with your mind a little bit in terms of, thinking about, you know, kind of, dreams or time or you know? And, again, like, that was a thing where it was kind of someone who has short term memory loss, and and kind of, like, how we how what how that could be you know, how that would change their perception when they basically, you know, reset after having forgotten everything that's happened in their immediate past. But they have a long term memory of their, you know, distant past, so it's quite a you know, again, you have maybe some conundrums around that.
Peter O'Toole:And what's your favorite food?
Michael Dustin:You know, probably from, you know, a family kind of traditional standpoint, like, the Maine lobster is is sort of like the would be sort of like one of the Dustin sort of, you know, kind of kind of favorites that I'll still, you know, rarely very occasionally, but but, you know, kind of often sometimes take advantage of.
Peter O'Toole:So at home, are you the cook or the washer upper?
Michael Dustin:Usually, the washer upper, but there are a couple things I do, you know, for dinners, that are sort of that rotate into the, but but usually on the yeah. So during during the, lockdown periods and pandemic of things, we did kind of, like, diversify our repertoire of things that we were, you know, kind of preparing. And we're still kind of in that, you know, working working through the things, or we're right now kind of repeating some of the things that we made in that time frame for the first time.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. I didn't ask you that when we're doing the films. Star Trek or Star Wars?
Michael Dustin:You know, like, I mean, early on, Star Trek yeah. I mean so so, you know, we, I was kind of raised on that, I would say, in some ways. Like, that was something that was, you know, you know, again, with all of its, you know, kind of period, you know, strangeness, but, yeah, so so did did enjoy that.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. X, Twitter, or LinkedIn?
Michael Dustin:So, you know, LinkedIn has been the most useful for me, because, you know, it's a great way to get in touch with people and companies that don't have good websites or at least websites that let you really track people in the organization. So, you know, I I think that's sort of like the, and we do a lot of collaborative work with with, you know, pharma and small biotechs and things around this immune synapse topic, which is, you know, kind of a, in a way, sort of a a framework for how some of these, you know, drugs, immunotherapies, and things work. So so, yeah, so that's been so so LinkedIn's been really useful, like like Twitter, x type thing. You know, I have an account, and and and I'll tweet papers, like, you know, preprints and things. But but, you know, basically, most of the real utility comes from from LinkedIn and connections made there.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. And final quick fire question. Favorite color?
Michael Dustin:Green. You know, this I you know, as as a child, I had kind of a, I would say, like, a hyperactivity, and and I was a slow slow to learn things. And, you know, green was the first color I could really nail down, you know, as again, when I was when I was really young. So so then I kind of stuck with that as a favorite color.
Peter O'Toole:That that's that's that's the best answer anyone's given to date. Although looking at your shot, I'm I'm surprised you didn't say green fluorescent protein or yellow fluorescent protein.
Michael Dustin:And and it's green fluorescent protein. So that that reinforced my decision, you know, that that basically this is the evolved, you know, fluorescent, color that you used to but, of course, you're switching blue light, you know, so it's all although the whole spectrum basically is is is now of you know, it's really I I say the visible spectrum is my favorite part of the spectrum. Although, you know, we're using x rays now too and and electrons and stuff. So so I guess, you know, it's it's
Peter O'Toole:a Take take it. You mentioned when you you know, hyperactive learning gets to sort of green the first color you can remember doing. What's the first job that you can remember ever wanting to do as a child?
Michael Dustin:You know, it's interesting. Like, I I really I guess if I were to filter it and kind of, you know, present it, I I really kind of love the idea of being a, like, a like, a naturalist studying studying nature. So that was sort of, you know, I kind of I remember I remember actually saying this, I wanna be like a hermit, you know, because that's what I thought, you know, this was sort of like was like, you know, if you're watching these, you know, you know, studying animals in the, you know, in their environment, could be in the desert. I was quite interested in desert. You know, that this would be, you know, sort of like being also the whole lifestyle would be sort of like, you know, you're camping.
Michael Dustin:It's sort of you know, it would be it would be sort of like a but but, you know, that was that was my first interest. And I actually kinda even when I got to college age, I was kind of I did actually, like, look at, like, wildlife biology programs. I applied to one at UVM, and that was, you know, again, kinda before I decided to just go with biology at BU. And, again, BU was kinda like, okay. It was like, you know, Boston, you know, versus versus Burlington, Vermont.
Michael Dustin:I was kind of you know, maybe more drawn to Boston as a student at that point.
Peter O'Toole:So and from the extreme of what one wants to be, if you could do any job in the world for a day or a week just to just to know what it feels like, What sort of job would you like to do?
Michael Dustin:That's a good question. Oh, maybe maybe at this point, like, you know, you know, like a CEO of a big company, you know, just heading a big company or something, and just seeing what that you know, I don't know. On a given day, nothing may happen. But, you know, it may be I guess on a busy on a busy day, like a busy day for someone who's running something really large, because again, I don't have any idea how anyone would view that when I have a hard time managing, you know, like, a lab with, you know, 10, 12 people or something. You know, how do you deal with, you know, this kind of huge hierarchy?
Michael Dustin:I suppose it's a lot of delegation, but, you know, I guess, yeah, it could be and, again, we're like I said, I I mentioned earlier that we're we're kind of spinning out a company, and, you know, right now I'm just like a kinda like an academic founder, so I'm not I'm not gonna join the company any you know, and I have, you know, the 2 there's a student from my lab and another Oxford student who are basically the CEO and the CSO. So they're starting this you know, it's just like this this that little thing at this point called Grants of Bio. But but, you know, again, I'm I'm really excited about that, and and, again, like, I I I'm kind of interested to see, you know, because because they're they've been kind of it's interesting, like, this generation I don't know if it's this generation or it's maybe based on what's been processed, but these guys have had lots of entrepreneurial training, as part of their like, Ashley J. Naharinen, the guy who's one of the guys from my life who's starting this, has done lots of these, like, kind of pitching competitions and all of these sort of entrepreneurial sort of, you know, just workshop y kind of things and educational experiences that he's done in, you know, parallel with his DPhil and his undergraduate work and things.
Michael Dustin:So he's been kind of building towards this for a long time. And but I think but I think it's like and, again, they're doing it with a, incubator called y combinator, or accelerator, I guess, you might call it, called called y combinator. It's out in San Francisco, and they're getting lots of, you know, you know, kind of just huge learning curve of of basically talking to their, you know, people there and people from these, you know, successful startups of the, you know, past 10 years or something. So so it's really, again, it's quite exciting.
Peter O'Toole:It's a brave thing for them to do.
Michael Dustin:Yes, yes. They're all in. They're all in. And that's, you know, so, at least, you know, the y Combinator's thing is, like, the, you know, the the the success of this company is, you know, we've had some input into some, you know, kind of observations or phenomena that that they're, you know, building on. But really, it's gonna be them, you know, who who won't make it or break it, you know, because that's that's the, you know, they're putting their full time into that.
Michael Dustin:And, you know, again, I think it's it's exciting to watch. And again, this is something that I've as I've gotten, you know, even from, you know, my first move from St. Louis to to NYU, you know, being able to be involved in supporting someone who's just starting out, is also, like, a really nice thing to be able to do once you've gotten through that sort of threshold of getting to the next step or something. Like, you know, you've gone from, you know, you've you have got tenure or whatever. And and, you know, when I when I when we moved to NYU, there was a junior PI named Wen Biao Gan who was also was interested in, like, having 2 photon microscopy, but didn't have sufficient funding as an assistant professor just starting his lab to do that.
Michael Dustin:He was using various things they could do with conventional fluorescence microscopy on very thin specimens, but he wanted to go into the cortex. So, you know, when I was talking to him during my visits to NYU, he was like, you know, I can build the microscope that's needed for this and just from parts for well, you know, that's a lot of money, but but, you know, relatively speaking, a less than a commercial system. And, you know, so part of my thinking in this was like, okay. We wanna learn this technology. Here's a guy who has the skill set to build it, I was convinced, and has his own set of questions.
Michael Dustin:So he has his own set of biology he wants to study, so there's no competition at all, and we can learn from him. So that was one of the attractive things about moving. And, you know, we we sort of so we kind of with our startup package, we had to bankroll the microscope. And, you know, he had a paper of Nature within a year. It was amazing because he knew he wanted to basically look at dendritic spines in the cortex, and he had an idea about, like, what he would find in an adult animal.
Michael Dustin:And and it was, and he was, you know, again, they they they went in and did these heroic experiments and collected this data, and and, you know, he published those results, which were actually kind of going against the trend of the time in terms of, like, synapsibility in the in the brain because he was looking at adults. Everyone else was looking at developmental systems. They wanted to see dynamics, so that's what they saw. He wanted to say, see, okay, what's a stable network look like that's actually functioning? And he found lots of stability.
Michael Dustin:So you know, I guess the thing about you know? And that you know? So we weren't we weren't involved in those papers at all, but, you know, it was great to be able to have them put it on. And and and we did do some experiments together, and and and that was a lot of fun too.
Peter O'Toole:We we try I know it was interesting because actually if you if you don't go to tools today's term today's sort of world, access to instrumentation of whatever nature is a very big pull for academics. So they can start answer questions that they may not be able to address elsewhere. If that technology isn't available, multi photon back then was obviously a niche, emerging. I understand. We might possibly be that 1.
Peter O'Toole:Have there been any really challenging times, difficult times in your career that you've had to overcome?
Michael Dustin:Well, I mean, really just, you know, that that first in a way, like, we had a lot of fun in the lab. Like, I was actually working in the lab for the first 5, 6 years, and maybe that was even even like a problem. I wasn't I wasn't working hard enough on communicating the the information in the grass, all that. But but, you know, that was that was great. And but but it was there were stressful periods there and things where we were like, okay.
Michael Dustin:This is not working out. Like, we we need to change something. And, you know, and again, you know, there was support and there was pressure from our from from from the leadership in in in our in our department. So so I think, you know, the, yeah, so that was tough, in some ways. But, yeah, but a lot of but a lot of fun in others.
Michael Dustin:So, you know, What what
Peter O'Toole:would you say has been the most fun? Well, if you could repeat a year, what was the most fun year that you've ever had? It's gonna be the same time, isn't it? I can see this coming.
Michael Dustin:You know, well well, you know, the, yeah, so that that that working on that paper is a good time, but I'll pick it a different thing. So so there was, in 2015, so after we moved to Oxford, we got invited by, Ron Vale and, Mike Rosen to do a summer in Woods Hole, and it was sort of like maybe 2 months, and they had an HHMI, you know, collaborative workshop grant of some kind. It was basically like, you know, to basically bring together people from, like, 3 or 4 labs. You'll have this you know, set up this little sort of lab in Woods Hole, which reminded me of the labs I worked in as an undergrad at BU, in the eighties, you know, with actually similar level of regulation. I think it's become more, you know, normal now, but, you know, at least at that point in 2015, it was kind of, like, you know, very informal in a way in a regulatory framework.
Michael Dustin:But it was sort of I actually got to do some experiments and work with some of the things that people you know, I'd worked up to maybe 2,000 in the lab. So for 15 years, I was doing nothing in the lab. And I got, you know, like, for a month or so to basically just tinker around in the lab with a postdoc and a student who joined there, and then all the other, you know, postdocs and students from, you know, Ron's lab and and Mike's lab. And and, you know, and these are now, like, all colleagues, you know, in in the field. They're all people who've, you know, are are still in the mix in some way.
Michael Dustin:And and, you know, as I was just visiting, Marcus Taylor in Berlin just just last week, and and, you know, kind of hanging out and seeing how he's doing at the Max institute where he's working. And he was one of the postdocs who came over with, I guess, like, a future mayor, and and he had a maybe connection with Ron Vale too. So it was sort of like you know, it was it was a great little, you know, just sort of let's do things together around condensates and signaling. And and, yeah, they had, like, you know, 10 microscopes or something, and everyone just sort of, you know, did experiments, you know, some and and, you know, with some desire to basically trade, you know, little our little trade secrets and things that are sort of, you know, not you can't really even write enough detail in a protocol, in a paper to describe these things, but we all got to, you know, kind of exchange them. So it was really it was really fun.
Peter O'Toole:That's so joke.
Michael Dustin:You can't do it you can't do it every every every year probably, but, you know, some people do. I mean, some people pilgrimage back to Woods Hole and just, you know, tinker around in the lab
Peter O'Toole:Sounds more focused given that collegiality networking. But, yeah, those those sort of tips, you know, the tricks of the trade type tips and sharing those in the game for us. That sounds it's a very smart idea, actually.
Michael Dustin:Yeah. And this was and this was, like, all you know, maybe several labs in this area in different fields of biology, like, not just immunology for which is which was our kind of interest, but, you know, people working with, you know, other types of cells and stromal cells. And, you know, just sort of it was it was kind of a bit of a melding pot or, you know, kind of a chance to just sort of cross pollinate. And again, it was great. It was a lot of fun for me just because I got to tinker around in the lab a bit.
Michael Dustin:And it was sort of like I felt like I wasn't being irresponsible. I was kind of you know, it was part of a it was a worthwhile effort, you know, that I could have that reconnect. So
Peter O'Toole:The out of work, what sort of hobbies do you have? I I know you got a pet dog, Potter, I think.
Michael Dustin:Yeah. So we've had we've had various dogs over the years, starting from when we were, you know, kind of just going off to our postdocs, finishing graduate school and going to postdocs. So right. So we always had the, you know, dog training and keeping the dog kind of, you know, sort of like, was our first in a way, like, our first child got us ready for having a family with our daughter and then and then kind of, you know, now now, you know, kind of bizarre or, again, our our little boy at this point. But the, yeah.
Michael Dustin:I mean, I mean, photography, I mean, it may sound a little bit too close to what I do in some ways, but from high school, had an interest in, you know, maybe teenager years, had an interest in in, you know, photography with film. Now mostly digital, obviously, but I'm still carrying around and enlarger. So, you know, one of these days, I could go back to film if, if I found a good dark room to set up, a place to set up a dark room. And, of course, like, you know, labs don't have those anymore because everything is pretty digital. I think we still have the film developer maybe because some people are still hanging on to ECL, but it's you know, or or this luminescence based, gel technology.
Michael Dustin:But, you know, the the, yeah, the opportunities to maybe maybe at some point, I'll see if I could, like, rent some space in a dark room and play around with that. That would be fun.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. I I I when I started at York, we had a couple of dark rooms. Once they got the multi photon microscope in it. Yeah. Good place to put into a dark room.
Peter O'Toole:It's an ideal place. No windows. Yeah. And the other ones now got a label free base focus system in there. So, yeah, yeah, both of them gone as a as the electron microscopes really went digital at that point.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah.
Michael Dustin:Sure. Sure. Right. Right. Right.
Michael Dustin:Film became obsolete.
Peter O'Toole:So so your hobbies at a film, it's actually my my my my research, my PhD supervisor, Richard Cherry. He, when he retired, got into photography in a big way and then started to get quite competitive in his club and everything else. It's I guess that eye for imaging, makes it
Michael Dustin:Well, nature you know, I I remember I mentioned that, you know, I was interested in nature early on. And so photography you know, photographing, you know, we've done at least you know, we did one big trip to Panama where we did sort of, like, bird watching and photographing lots and lots of photography of, you know, all these beautiful birds and things. So so, you know, I could see, you know, if we had more time, you know, maybe retirement or something, you know, kind of, yeah, getting getting getting into that more, as sort of like just sort of a, it's not so close to to to the microscope work, and it gets you outside. So
Peter O'Toole:So we we are up to the hour already, but I I have to ask you. If you got any regrets if you go back and change something? Because they don't they don't think you would change.
Michael Dustin:You know, I think I think mostly around just kind of communicating better in some situations. You know, I guess, you know, I think I think, like, in academic settings, I I guess what I learned through several transitions and things is that, you know, being, you know, completely open about those kinds of, you know, just just basically what you're thinking at any time in terms of, you know, you know, if you feel like you need to make a change, just to just, you know, let everyone know that that's that's what's happening. Because I'd I'd say, like, when I left WashU, I kind of regret not communicating more clearly with my with my chair at that point. And, you know, and, you know, then then when I decide when when the kind of the idea of moving from NYU to Oxford came up, I was much more communicative about that whole process and what my thinking was, and it was obviously much, much, much better. So so yeah.
Michael Dustin:So I think, like, you know, just I guess as, you know, sort of, like, communities, like, you know, again, anything about, you know, collaboration, fear, all the peer review stuff, you know, that, you know, that we're really, completely dependent upon communication with our our colleagues and, of course, like, the closest colleagues, like, the people in your department and things. So, basically, to be, you know, really open with them about what those kind of things, like, you know, things that would affect, you know, kind of thing big things like moods and and stuff like that not to be you know, because I was kind of I guess at that point, maybe I was a little bit, maybe just a little bit lack confidence to basically just say, hey, I'm thinking about this. And it turned out that they they knew everything, you know, so everyone knew everything that was going on because they obviously have their own networks and things. So it was just kind of, you know, in the end, I think that kind of open communication is sort of a key, you know, to and again, I think, you know, it it's possible that in other job settings, that maybe there are even, like, kind of confidentiality issues or something that would say, you know, that, you know, that that that would in that in which case, that might be that might be that might be different.
Michael Dustin:But I think in in in academic pursuits, I, you know, I I think we're, you know, really, really this kind of, you know, my experience openness would be the way to go.
Peter O'Toole:And and on the theme of communication, although we're just over the hour, I should just point out for everyone watching, listening, you actually do quite a few different YouTube clips really explaining the meteorological insights.
Michael Dustin:Oh, yeah. Well, this was this was at that Woods Hole I mentioned in 2015. So, Ron Vale, and and his wife were basically organizing this iBiology series, which has lots of fantastic, you know, these these kind of videos, but they did these kind of like weatherman type things, like where you have the green screen and you kind of redesign your slides so that, you know, 1 third of the slide is blank that you can stand in, basically, and then, you know, that you're basically pointing at the, you know, at at at you know, rather than using a pointer, you are literally in the picture pointing at whatever you're trying to to communicate. So, yeah, so we made the series of 3 videos that were kind of, you know, maybe a 2015 snapshot of where that field was, but kind of, you know, trying to start with more basic immunology concepts. And I guess, like, the first one is probably pretty accessible for, like, a science like, a high school science student or something on that level.
Michael Dustin:Like, maybe maybe not like like a total you know, someone who's, you know, no longer, you know, thinking thinking about science at all. But but, you know, but I think, again, yeah, that that was a lot of fun. And maybe even just kinda preparing that and kind of, you know, getting into the mindset to kind of, you know, do that was was was a lot of fun. And that was so that was part of that thing. Like, so I could do experiments, and we and we did those videos that same in that same 2 months.
Peter O'Toole:To say and the so the impacts on that sounds really good. We we're well over the air. We have to stop. And there's so much I wanted to talk about. We haven't talked about spatial imaging.
Peter O'Toole:We haven't talked about the first first microscopes and where where you see the future going, but we have to wrap up. And, Mike, it's been a real pleasure. I hope everyone listening. I I think there's been so much useful advice in there that I think we can all learn from as well. And just carry on inspiring.
Peter O'Toole:Mike, thank you very much.
Michael Dustin:Thanks, Pete. It's a pleasure. And, Yeah. Yeah. Happy to happy to catch up on some of these other things at some other point.
Peter O'Toole:Thank you for listening to The Microscopists, a Bite Size Bio podcast sponsored by Zeiss Microscopy. To view all audio and video recordings from this series, please visit bitesizebio.comforward/themicrosoftopists.
Creators and Guests
