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Welcome to the Microscopists, a Bite-sized bio podcast

hosted by Peter Oto, sponsored by Zeiss Microscopy.

Today on the microscopists,

Today on the microscopist, Paul

Ricardo from University of

Bristol talks about what

inspired him right back at the start

to develop correlated imaging methodologies

That certain structures like tubular endosomes,

they fall apart upon chemical fixation.

So that, that's where I came up with the idea

that we need something that we can utilize imaging

because those tubals are not there all the time,

and we need to be able to freeze that.

He talks about Coe,

establishing the Wolf Bioimaging facility

Together with Mark Jepson.

We set up the Wolf Bioimaging facility, probably one

of the very first re integrated light

and electron microscopy facilities

And spills the beans on his favorite Christmas movie.

Oh, uh, what's his name? Hug Grande. And, uh,

Not, actually, Not actually.

Uh, I, I, I still cry with that.

I still cry with it, but I still watch it every year,

All in this episode of The Microscopist.

Hi, I'm Peter Oul from University of York,

and today on the Microscopist.

I'm joined by, joined

by Paul Riccardi from University

of Bristol. Paul, how are you today?

Um, not too bad. Thank you. Yeah, it's been an, I've, I've

Done an Experiment today. That's been a long time.

Uh, in the lab or just a in in

The, in the lab. Yeah,

I've been in the lab today.

Okay. So now I'm utterly intrigued

to know exactly what you were doing in the lab.

What do you think We were trying to do?

Correlated microscopy.

Yeah. Yeah. But you said you were doing the experiment,

surely you weren't just on the microscope.

Um, um, every now

and then I do go to the microscope, but this

Was the preparation.

Tomorrow we'll go actually to the microscope. So, so,

Proper science. Proper

in the

Proper science, yeah.

Doesn't happen too often anymore, unfortunately.

You, uh, you sent me one picture.

Well, you sent me a few pictures,

but the one picture, now you said you've been in the lab.

This is, so this is you in the early days

In the, definitely,

I'm looking at the picture of you

and you look a lot, lot younger.

I was a lot younger.

That must been, uh, at least 15 years ago,

I'd probably just moved to Bristol.

So that was 2006. Um,

And with, uh, with your like a, uh, fast freeze,

rapid freeze, what was it called?

Um, MPAC two

Plus RTS,

the rapid transfer system. And I guess the rapid

Transfer system was the special thing about it.

Yeah. My, my, my claim to fame is

where you could wield this, this machine right next

to any light microscope, confocal, uh, do live imaging,

take your sample, put it into that high pressure freeze,

and it's frozen, and then we can process that.

So really doing that correlative

workflow on live imaging.

So, so critically, this is,

so you're actually looking at what's going on

inside a live cell and within a second it's frozen.

Yes. The machine takes about two and a half seconds.

We have about one second.

So let's, three, three

and a half seconds is what we,

we said would be the time resolution.

We we're still pretty good

because we couldn't do that before, so,

So, so critically, if things are moving in the cell

and you want to correlate it in the electron microscope,

that enables you to use that live cell light microscope,

freeze it really, really fast so

that things haven't really moved much.

So you can capture exactly what the ultra structure of where

that is is going.

Well, there's a, how did you,

conceptually it sounds dead easy from a microscope thinking

of taken something from one microscope

and getting onto another micro.

Actually, this is not so simple. So how did you think of it?

How

Well it, it started off around 2000

because there were two seminal papers, uh,

by Roman Polish Shook, uh, uh, OB back Lui

and Sasha Mironov.

Those were using, at that point, they were using GFP,

but they were using special imaging dishes.

Um, and the imaging dish always has a glass bottom,

but this, this glass bottom

had a finer pattern engraved in it.

So that allows you to see the, the, the,

the pattern in the light microscope.

But because it stands out a little bit,

it's also imprinted into your e om block.

And that, that's basically where it started off.

I always had the idea that that was done

with chemical ation,

that certain structures like tubular endosomes,

they fall apart upon chemical fixation.

So that, that's where I came up with the idea

that we need something that we can do live imaging

because those tubs are not there all the time,

and we need to be able to freeze that.

And that's where, at a certain point, um, I had a discussion

with, uh, the head of, of the facilities at that time

that was in, in den, at the Max Plank Institute

for Molecular Cell biology with,

with someone called Ivan Baes.

And we decided, we'll, we'll call Leica

and asked them if they're interested in that idea.

And that's where we called up, uh, someone called Ian, um,

very good friend now.

And he, he had almost ha hung up, uh, until he,

all of a sudden, I dunno, he saw the light of, oh,

maybe this is a, is a, is a nice idea.

And that's why we started such a developing that,

that machine together

and that that was really, yeah, one of the

most exciting things, um, yeah, that I've done.

I think,

I think it's amazing the company was so willing

to work in partnership and to, to develop it through.

'cause it doesn't often happen, not at

that early concept stage.

Not, not, not at at the concept stage, even not just early

At the concept. Yeah,

no, exactly. That's where it would've been cool

to have such a, basically get the, the picture

that I gave them was a picture of a light microscope,

a black box, and, uh, a high pressure freezer.

That was the whole concept at that point.

Uh, and, and that's what where we developed it from.

That's typical, but, but you are not an

engineer in background.

No, but Paul, what, what was your first degree in?

Sorry. Oh, um, I actually am a qualified teacher, so

that's why I had one of the other, um, pictures in there is

in, in, so I'm, I'm Dutch, as you probably know.

Uh, there, the, the,

the education system is a bit different.

So if you, if you wanna become a teacher, um, you first,

that is a separate degree.

That's not a university degree. Mm-Hmm.

Um, and so when I was 17,

I hadn't got a clue what I was wanted to do,

but I did like biology

and I did like chemistry at, at school, at,

and so that's where I decided, okay, I'll, I'll go

and do, uh, a teacher's degree in chemistry and biology.

And I really enjoyed that.

Not not from the start,

because, um, at the very first, it was probably one

of the very first, uh, days in, in that, uh,

setting where we had to give a presentation.

Um, and my presentation at that point didn't make much

of an impact because my feedback was, oh,

did you present as well?

We didn't notice. So I was, I was done so fast

that nobody was, had the time to make, uh, any,

any, any notes.

So that's where it, and then went on,

and then, then you go into schools to, to practice.

Yeah. Um, and like I said, I was 17, 18 at that time.

I was cycling into school,

and then some of my students came in

by car who were also 18.

They were just as old as I was, and I had to teach them.

And that's why I realized maybe, uh, at the moment I'm,

I'm too young to do that

and maybe this is not my, my so say career.

And that's why, why I decided, okay,

you could then transition from the teacher's

education into university.

And that's why I decided, okay, I'll, I'll,

I'll start doing, uh, biology.

So that's my in, in raft. That's why I studied.

I, I I, I, I've gotta say this, this picture,

I presume is not you as a teacher.

That is not me as a teacher.

So there's, there's a, there's a few things I can talk about

that This is Chris Neil and Chris

Neil looking like a lecturer, as you'd expect a lecturer

with a wooden cane and a mortar hat and black gown. And

Yeah. So

this is, yeah, like I said, this is Chris Neal.

He's one of the technical ex experts

in our bolson bio imaging facility,

but he also plays in a Pink Floyd Chi band,

and he dresses up, he's a background singer,

but he always dresses up as, um,

characters from certain songs.

And I'm, I'm, I assume you know now which song this is.

Yeah. It's already going through my head.

Yes. So that, that's where I, I I really love that.

Um, yeah.

So that's kind, it's a nice cyclic loop, isn't it?

The teaching is all the way there,

and we'll come to courses later on.

But you said you didn't know what you wanted

to do when you were 17.

So I actually, I've never asked you this.

Of all the times you've, when you were a child,

what is the first job

that you can remember thinking, I'd like to be a,

I have a very bad memory.

Um, Ooh,

I, I really can't remember.

No.

So you, you can't remember any of the jobs you wanted

to be when you were a child?

No, no. Never Wanted to be a football player.

Uh, yeah. But that, that's, I was thinking more,

something more realistic.

That that's where, um,

I'm gonna deviate a bit from your question

because I, I think so, um, my, um,

my dad was a, is was a carpenter.

He's, he's long retired,

and I was the first one to go

to university of the whole family.

And my grandparents were really against it

because that's, they, they thought that's, that's not what

our people do.

They don't go to university.

And that's why I'm, I'm really grateful

and thankful for my, my parents.

They defended that and said, no, he,

he decides his own future.

And, and that's, that's what I've done ever since.

I, it's where, yeah, sometimes opportunities just appear.

And, and that's probably what, what happened throughout.

Yeah. My, my life is, is chance,

uh, opportunities.

So your dad was a carpenter, did he say? Yeah.

Yeah. So, so was mine. Yeah.

So that's where He could do almost

everything in a building trade.

Oh, yeah, definitely. How's your, uh,

how's your carpentry skills?

Um, okay, we've,

we've just changed last weekend,

we, or not the weekend before.

We changed all the door handles in, in our house. So,

And no swearing or cursing when you were doing it?

Um, no.

Can't be repeated here.

Yeah. See my carpentry skills, I think I'd,

I'd disappoint my dad hugely.

Uh, yeah. Yeah, he's exceptionally good

and I'm exceptionally poor.

Uh, anything di IY

Yeah. Yeah.

No, I try to be,

but it's, it's, I will never match those skills.

Uh, that was, yeah.

I come for myself that at least I can use a microscope

and I don't think my dad can, so,

Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah.

We, we, we have things.

So from your degree, uh, can you remember

what the first microscope was that you used?

Light or electron?

Um, uh, electron.

Yeah, because Al already during my undergraduates, I did,

um, I did two projects.

One was, uh, molecular genetics

and was one was electro microscopy.

So it was at the time when molecular genetics

was really hot.

And, um, where basically I was escort,

escorted by one of the, the postdocs

to get one microliter of restriction enzyme,

which was locked away.

Um, and I, I didn't like it that much.

And then I did the electro microscopy project,

and that, that really was where, yeah, this is

what I find exciting.

This is what floats my boat,

and that, that's what it's been ever since. Yeah.

Do you remember what the microscope was?

Uh, that was at that time of Phillips?

Uh, I don't know the model. Yeah.

Oh, can't remember the model. Whoa.

Yeah, I know the, the, the second one I used,

it was a four 20.

Um, so, and

after that came this CM 100 CMM 200,

but that's where the, the, the four 20 was special.

So that's when I was doing my PhD, um, with, uh,

uh, uh, someone called, uh, Ari Kle, who was,

was quite a famous name in the Netherlands.

Um, and that

Philips four 20 was really a special microscope.

Only certain people were allowed on there.

And after two years, I was on allowed on there as well.

So I was really proud of myself that, that, yeah,

I made that progression.

So from that, so, so that,

that's where you found your passion.

You are now a, you, you went to Bristol

and you have an academic career.

You're an ac, you're a professor now at Bristol,

but you also set up heavily involved in the core facility

side as well at the time, and you set it up.

Yep. Uh, which side did you prefer?

The academic or the facility side?

Um, the, ah,

the experimental side of the facility.

Okay. That's good.

Running, running a facility itself is, um, is not,

not what is really exciting,

but working with other people, developing new protocols,

doing, doing, yeah.

Fun stuff. Or at least for me, fun stuff is, is that,

that is what excites me.

So it could be on, on, uh, plants,

tissue cell cultures,

but it, it's, it's the, it's the technical question,

or the technical solution for a biological question that

I like working on that is really what e excited me.

So Paul, excuse my ignorance, Paul, I should know better,

but you know, I, I see you as a, you,

you collaborate with so many people.

Yeah. So let know, you're sort of,

I probably more academic now than facility in, in your,

your job description, your call,

but is your lab actually still run with the ethos

of helping developing pipelines, methodologies,

bringing technology, but sucking in other people's

biological questions and working with those?

Is that how you've developed the academic lab?

Or is it you have your own singular

biological question and to Yeah.

You know, you're not, but the collaborations

No, that, that is again, where it, it is actually hard

to, to, to work like that,

but I don't, I don't have my pet protein,

I don't have my pet pathway.

I'm, I'm an, I'm a microscopist.

I wanna apply my microscopy still skills

to a wide variety of projects,

and especially, of course, in,

in the correlated microscopy field.

So that, that is, is hard

because there's, there's not always funding for those kinds

of, uh, of positions. Yeah.

So you got one. I've, I've got one,

but again, I'm, I'm not part of the facility anymore.

So when I got my, uh, promotion to professor,

I was told I was too expensive to be heading of facility,

and that, that still hurts me.

Um, uh,

but that's, that's where nowadays you can have a,

uh, a pathway that is more

or less technical, whereas it, that, that's now

seven, eight years ago, that's where you had to go to,

if you, if you went that way, you had

to go into an academic route.

So that, that's where I was basically scared.

I was always on a, uh, really,

um, technical path.

And then I was diverted to a more academic role.

I, I know you said that still hurts,

but it said, uh, from, from the outside,

it looks like you've kind of got the best of both worlds,

that you don't have to worry about the instrumentation,

and you can concentrate, as you just said, being in the lab,

working on new scientific problems, uh,

not having your own pet protein

or biological question to solve.

But being a, an applied microscopist, uh, in a

academic world, I kind of, kind of sounds pretty cool.

I, yeah, in that sense, I'm probably, I'm,

I'm quite okay. I'm privileged.

I, I think that there's a, I bet there's a lot

of core staff that are thinking, oh my God,

that's actually what I'd like to do.

Not to worry about the finances services,

but you've got to worry about the grant funding.

Yeah. I, I would, I would argue compared to many

of your peers, because you are working with

so many collaborators,

your funding is coming in from all sorts

of different avenues that if you are an individual could be,

you're probably more resilient and more spread.

Yeah, yeah. But yeah.

But you are also dependent on other people, which is,

is not the fun part.

Yeah. Okay. That's, that's where, and,

and I have very good collaborators

that they will always support that,

but to say, making it clear also for new collaborations that

I can't do all the experiments they wanna do,

I need people in my lab to do those, those experiments so

that if you apply for a grant, there needs to be stuff

personnel, but also, um, consumables

and things like that on that grant to support that.

Yeah. And, and yeah, as a collaborator,

generally the academic, the, the lead PI is less likely

to put, so I think it's getting a lot better, you know,

pe when you collaborate collaborators are actually

braver more confident in putting on those extra costs

for their collaborators to actually get the science done.

And the grant panels are pretty wise that

it does take that resource.

And it is team science, isn't it?

Yes. No, that, that's what I thrive on, is working with,

with other people, having those also inter,

especially interdisciplinary is, is quite cool.

Working with physicists, with chemists

and things like that is

Thinking of your team. Uh,

Yeah.

Just another picture for those who are listening,

who's the picture of Paul?

So, on the right, uh, that is Lorna,

um, and in the middle age, Judith.

Judith has been with me since I moved to Bristol.

And Lorna has been a postdoc in the, in the group for

at least seven years.

She's now moved into the facility.

So that's where, again, as, as with grant funding,

you can't guarantee that she'll be, uh, funded

for the next couple of years.

So that's where she took the decision.

I will go into the facility, which, which is

very useful for the facility.

And this, this was, again, this was to celebrate, um, one

of the successes we had as a group where we worked with, um,

a guy called, uh, Jeremy Carlton Jazz.

And by chance he was giving another seminar here today.

And this, this was where we really, this is one

of the nicest correlated microscopy projects we've done,

was published in nature.

So it really had an impact.

And, and that was such a, such a cool collaboration. Yeah.

I'm, I'm still really, really proud of that one.

Yeah, I, I just like the picture.

It, it showed the group and the team Yeah.

That, and as you said, you know, we as a team, uh, achieved

a lot of those successes together as along

with the collaborators as well.

Yeah. Uh, what's been the hardest time

in your career to date?

Not saying you're gonna get hardest problems going

forward, I don't wish that on you.

Well, most difficult time you've had to deal with.

Um, I, well, that was that time when I got professorship,

um, which in itself was great,

but that's where basically I was told,

you're not gonna lead the EM facility anymore.

Um, and that really hurt me, um,

because we, we had just had a review of the facilities,

and it, the last sentence in that report was actually,

we should continue with having two facility heads, uh, one

for LM and one for em.

And then the next time I had a discussion with the dean

and he told me, we think it's,

it's good if you would step down as facility head.

And, and that really hurt me.

And, and basically where, uh,

my baby was taken away from me, um,

because I, I, together with Mark json,

we'd set up the Wilson Bio Imaging facility, probably one

of the very first really integrated light

and electro microscopy facilities that was there,

which I de I developed over the year.

That's, that's why at that point, the,

the facility was well known for as well,

is the correlated microscopy.

And that's where I, they, they asked me to step down

or told me to step down.

No, I, so, so from the outside Whirlpool, uh,

I would say it was never seen

that it was taken off you just, that you had matured

into a new position to come to look after your baby

and let you carry on flourishing on the academic side of it.

So yeah, from the outside, it was seen as a very positive,

uh, and successful step.

Yeah, no, exactly. But it, it's also, um, I'm, I'm used

to the British system now, keeping up appearances.

Do, do you see it any differently

now? Do you see it that actually

Oh, yeah, yeah. No, no. That's,

that's where it takes time

to realize that actually.

Oh, uh, a lot of the worrying things like,

like recharging

and the constant pressure from, um,

faculty management to, to make the facility, uh,

break even and things like that.

I don't have to worry about that anymore.

And that's, that's, that's great.

So would you, uh,

would you say it's been a good move for you now?

Did they help? Did they do a good thing for you?

Uh, come on. Yeah, pro probably.

It's, it's,

It's, well, it's still hard.

It's, it's where there are times where I think no, I,

I wanna be involved in that. Yeah.

I, I the influence.

And do you know what, actually, it must be really hard

for the, the person who stepped in.

So Mark, in this case, it stepped in

to have you in the wings still.

That, that, that must be, actually, I'd love to know

what Mark's take is on this.

'cause it's like, oh my goodness.

But everything I do, I'm going to be judged

by Paul, you know?

And if I do something that Paul doesn't like,

it's gonna look really bad.

And my, you know, because he inherited some

of your team, I presume as well.

Yep. No, gosh, actually, I,

I'd say he's probably got the worst.

Oh, yes. No, I, I do realize that.

And, and I, I don't envy him

because since, since that time, the, the,

the financial pressure, uh, has, has only grown.

So that, that's, uh, I, I don't envy him at all,

But, so that was a difficult time in your career.

Yeah. What about, uh, flip on the flip side,

in all your career, when, when was the best years?

What was the best time?

I, I think the, the, the,

the moves I've made.

Um, so I,

after I did, I, I, I did my PhD.

I went to EML in Heidelberg.

Uh, I was postdoc there for five years.

And then at, uh, at some time, uh,

my supervisor, Kai Simmons, uh, he asked me, um,

I'm gonna set up a new Max Plank Institute.

Um, would you like to help set up the new EM facility?

And I'm like, yeah, that's, that's,

that's a unique opportunity to really establish a,

an EM facility completely from the start.

And, and that's where, uh, also just designing labs, having,

having the ideas of, yeah, this is, this is how I think it,

it should, what it should look like.

That those are really exciting times. And, and, yeah.

So that was one baby. Yeah.

And you left that baby to do the baby,

but so what, so what's your next baby gonna be?

Ah, yeah. That, that's,

I, well, ideally we, we, we would like

to, um,

because the technology is, is becoming more

and more complex

and, um, you really have to use,

uh, the right microscope for certain biological questions.

But you don't have always have that microscope. Yes.

So that's, that's where I think we should go to a system

where there is kind of a, a national facility

for correlative, multimodal imaging

that that is what would be, uh,

what we should be working towards and,

and what that's gonna look like.

There's been discussions going on that, that's all.

Yeah. Ongoing.

I would counter that. I, I would not look to set up

such a singular resource.

I, I would, I think that sort

of problem exists across the board in many other

technology platforms.

And to actually have a, a, a complete facility

that is actually ba to almost like a sabbatical facility

where people just come,

because that's where all the high-end new equipment,

novel equipment is, and some of the more turnkey stuff.

But we support access.

'cause not every university, but,

and say your microscopes are a million pounds plus your

multi bean SEM is, you know, I've chopped onions

and not wept as much as a price of some

of these microscopes can be.

Yep. You know, and I actually think,

but the same from mass

spectrometry, you know, genomics. No,

Exactly. So that,

To have all these put in with the experts

and scientists coming, meeting each other

and then going back for me, so it's even bigger vision.

It, it's bigger. That's why I,

I didn't call it a correlative light,

electro microscopy national seal.

It's a correlative, multimodal,

it is bringing more technologies together where

ideally you would wanna go to a system where

you have a molecule

and you can place it in a cell, in a tissue, in an organism.

Yeah. I, I, I, I love the idea.

I, it's an idea that I've talked to

multiple people about in the past.

It's a difficult world in any country

because the way that the academic world works to make a,

a neutral site Yeah.

That everyone, and wanting, and not to be hierarchical

or territorial about it, but, you know, we'll talk after.

'cause I have ideas on that as well.

We'll talk afterwards a bit about it.

I, I did wonder besides that whether your baby would be

actually not the microscapes anymore, but the community

and how you're putting the communities together,

That that's always been, uh, one of my big drivers,

I guess, is where it,

you can do things on your own,

but if you discuss it, um, bring people together,

you can get much more done.

And we don't need to reinvent the wheel. No, that's, yeah.

That's why I've been, yeah.

Very interested

and very active in, in a lot

of the community efforts like Bioimaging uk,

but together with Pipa Hose,

we set up EMUK really, but,

and which was really designed for, um,

people doing electro microscopy,

but interested in microscopy,

but also the in industrial people, bring those together and,

and not have them separated.

Yeah. Um, and so that, that, yeah, that's,

that's where we are now.

We, we, we've been very lucky.

So there was this Jen Zuckerberg

initiative for community building.

Um, and,

and actually for the two communities I'm involved with,

correlated microscopy volume, electro microscopy, both

of those, uh, initiatives were funded.

So we've just recruited a community officer

for the volume electro microscopy community

that is really now helping us,

because so far,

that was all done on a vol voluntary basis, as you know.

That is. And,

and that's where I, I'd like to spend time on that,

but I don't have always have time to spend on it.

And you sent me this picture. Oh yeah. Kind of.

Yeah. I got, so

who gone you go, who's through this picture? Starting on,

Um, on the left, left is Lucy Collinson, uh,

in the middle of Kate Raja.

And then we have Yannick Schwab.

And at the end it's me, as you can see.

Um, so one of the things that was always, I dunno,

somehow on my bucket list,

is I wanna organize a Gordon Research conference.

That's, that's one of the best conference

I'd always been to.

And, and that's something, uh, I would like to do.

So with the four of us, we applied to organize,

uh, a Gordon conference on volume, electro microscopy.

And, and with Lucy, we, we've been doing a lot

of stuff already on volume electro microscopy in the uk.

So that's where we made the decision. Okay.

Lucy and I are gonna organize that first Gordon conference,

uh, which happened in July this year in Ventura,

in, in, in the us.

And, and that, that was such an amazing meet, uh, meeting

where you have all the experts there.

You, it's, it's in a somewhat secluded, uh, setting,

so you can't escape each other, uh, as such.

Um, and then Yannick and,

and Cdar were already nominated

to be the next captains in this case of, of the next.

They've got captains caps on in the picture.

Yes. That's what we got them, um, at the end.

So they will, they will take over.

That's cool. Because I think actually everyone's been on a

different series of the microscopists different seasons.

So for every season, I think I've got one of you.

Yeah, no, these, these are, yeah.

These are my heroes as well.

So it's, um, I was, was very happy to to to do that.

Think. Thinking of your heroes, uh,

have there been any standout

inspirational people in your career?

Um, yes. That was my professor when I did my PhD.

Is, is, um, where at that time,

I don't know if, if you have to, same.

When, when I was doing my PhD,

I took electro microscopy pictures.

I never was really completely happy with them.

And then he really convinced me that this, no, this,

this is world, world-class work.

This is really very, very good.

Um, and he, he, he, he really motivated me.

And he's been the biggest inspiration, I think for,

during my, um, during my career, um,

where I've had a, a, a lot of supervisor

and you always learn from people.

You learn the good things, but also the bad things.

This is, this is not how I wanna be.

This is, this is what I do like about certain,

certain styles.

Yeah.

And how familiar is he with your career now?

He's unfortunately passed away already 10

years ago from cancer.

And that's happened to quite a few of my supervisors.

Unfortunately, you

Don't work with the electron microscopy reagents.

There's a lesson here.

Um, yeah, maybe I should check myself.

Um, it's where, no, some of them, uh, uh,

were not electron microscopies as well.

Yeah. They were just scientists. Yeah.

And age catches up with everyone at some point. Yeah.

Yeah. Uh, but, but he must have been aware of your career.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, definitely.

And, uh, but also the, the, um, so I had two, uh,

what they call promoters.

So that, that's, uh, two professors that supervised me

during the, the, uh, my, my project.

Uh, the other one is, is still very much alive

and he really follows what I've been doing.

So he, he organized, um, a gathering

of his former PhD students when he, I don't know,

he had about a hundred PhD students.

Uh, that's where he said, okay, I need

to get a party together.

And he, he really knew what I was doing at that time.

So he, he had followed up, was really happy about that.

So, to move away from a slightly sad note. Yeah.

Some quick fire questions.

Let's change our brain sets through it.

Are you an early bird or a night? Al

Can be both.

Um, I, I used to be in al um,

ages catching up.

And so that's where I, it's also annoying

because in the weekend, I can't lie in anymore until 10, 11.

I wake up at eight, nine and,

and just have to get out eight.

Why would you want to be in bed at 10 or 11?

'cause it, it, I, from my memory,

it was lovely to lie in bed.

That's why I'm very envious of, of, of my boys.

Yeah. Yeah. Except for when being a teenager, I think.

Yeah. After the early twenties that, that No,

there's too much you can do in a day.

There is, yes. A workday and a weekend as well. Yeah.

So you are a PC or Mac person? PC or Mac? Mac. Mac.

Mac, McDonald's, or Burger King?

Uh, bk. Okay. What's your go-to at Burger King?

Um, ooh, I, I love the,

the Chili bites, chili cheese Bites.

Okay. So another specific burger.

But I always have the chili cheese bites. Yeah.

That's if we go down,

Yeah. Uh,

Germany or uk,

Difficult one.

Um, they both have their, um,

their ups and downs.

I, at the moment, I would say uk, uh,

because every time we go back to either Germany

or the Netherlands, uh, it's, they're much harsher

that in that, in that sense,

UK really is a friendly country. Um,

In what way?

Um, if you bump into someone,

and it's my fault that other person will say

I'm sorry as well.

Yeah. I, it's, it's those little things where, um,

they, if you go into a shop,

they nicely ask you, can I help you?

And if you say, I'm just browsing, they,

they will leave you alone.

Um, whereas in, in those kind,

that's very generalization, of course.

But it is, it is different.

So I was also gonna ask UK or Netherlands,

but I think you probably just

Oh yeah, no, no. The

Netherlands is probably even worse.

I, I've always felt I, I wanted to go back.

Um, but every time we, we are then visiting family,

it's, it's, we we're shocked.

I I've got friends in the Netherlands

where I visit the Netherlands.

Uh, yeah. Not infrequently.

And yes, I, the language is very direct.

Yes, Very direct. There's no, there's no wrap around.

There's no PS and qss. I've always found it really friendly.

Uh,

Yes. Um,

and I dunno if, if that is the case,

but of course I speak Dutch. Um,

Glad to say I'm not listening to the language.

No, I'm reading body language.

I'm not hearing what that Yeah. Saying. Am I, you're right.

Besides being able to count

and say a few words, my Dutch is non-existent.

Yeah. Yeah. Very good point. Uh, tea or coffee?

Uh, coffee. Yeah. Short or long?

Uh, large. And I've, I've only recently switched

to oat milk rather than normal milk.

Okay. Uh, wine, not beer.

I'm not a real beer person. Can I choose cider?

Oh, you can't choose cider.

Actually, we, we can crystal all I, I missed a meeting,

so this is gonna be very, this moment in time

for anyone listening to the podcast.

But I missed a meeting last week

because I was over in Portugal talking,

and we are on a multi bid collaboration at the moment.

Yes. And that has just been named Cider. Was that your name?

Uh, yes, it was.

I had a meeting this week

with my internal collaborator, Joanna.

And I said, oh, it's side. 'cause Yeah, one

of the committee thoughts, they really liked Side,

I thought, I bet I know who that is.

That's gotta come from Bristol.

And so name just confirmed that I love it.

So, okay. Sorry. Yeah,

No, exactly that. But

that's, that's where you have to come up with these,

these acronyms, especially for EU projects

that the acronyms are,

are sometimes even more important than,

than the, the content.

Um,

Wait, but it does sell a vision and Yeah, yeah.

Does sell the, not the word,

but when, you know, the acronym, it,

it does sell the vision quite nicely.

Chocolate or cheese?

Chocolate Milk or Dark

Milk.

Cadburys or other, Sorry.

Cadburys or other?

No other Ca Cadbury is way too sweet.

Okay. So what's your go-to Mill Chocolate?

Um, you can basically the, the, the,

the standard little one.

But of course the, the Tony Cholon

is very popular at the moment.

Yeah. Um, um, what you probably don't know,

and I don't have it here,

FTA Chocolate, that's the best one.

Okay. So, okay.

Well, we will be seeing each other at some point soon.

You bring that and I'll bring, well,

I can't bring Cas, don't be wrong.

Uh, I'll find

Something.

Yeah, no, that, that's where

FTA is actually a very famous chocolate

and cookie brand in the Netherlands.

So that's, um, yeah. I I like that.

You obviously have a slight bias towards it as well. Of

Course. Yeah, probably.

What, what your favorite food if you were

to be taken out somewhere Right.

And down, what? A bit.

A favorite meal on a menu that you could pick from?

A favorite dish would be scallops.

Okay. Um, I do like fish, um,

but I do like steak as well.

It's, I'm, I'm not particular, yeah. Fish steak.

Okay. Those kind of things.

Anything you don't like, what would be your worst dish?

Your food nightmare?

Um, Cadbury's chocolate. Besides,

Yeah.

It's, um, something that's, that's very bitter.

I'm, I'm not a, I don't like bitter that much.

Okay. Yeah. I, I would go with that.

I, I, yeah, I, that's quite a good answer actually.

Yes. Yeah. I'm, I'm chicory, for instance, is,

is not my particular favorite.

So if you're at home, do you cook?

Yeah. You enjoy

Cooking? It depends

what time I get home.

Uh, but definitely in the weekend, um, I try to cook. Yeah.

And especially also since lockdown, I've,

I've started cooking much more.

I like the way you say you try to cook.

Does that mean you're a dreadful Oh.

Or you just like to cook?

No, no, no. I'm, I've, I've improved substantially

and I think they, um, I get compliments,

so it must be, must be.

Okay.

And, uh, I was gonna say, so you,

so you do cook occasionally.

What's your favorite film?

I do like, uh, the, the Star Wars, um,

the, yeah, okay.

Those kinds of Lord of the Rings.

So Bear is me gonna ask Next Star Wars or Star Trek.

And you've already answered it by saying Star Wars.

Yeah. Okay.

And what about your favorite Christmas film?

Oh, uh, what's his name? Hugh Grande. And, um,

Not actually, Not actually.

Ah, I, I, I still cry with that.

Don't, I still cry with it,

but I still watch it every year.

Yep, for Sure. And is this, is this your, this is, ah,

I've gotta get outta the way this picture.

This is your family, I presume?

Yep. That is on the left is Chris.

Uh, so he is studying mechanical engineering in Manchester.

Uh, next to him is Ter, he is still doing his A Levels.

And on the right is yoga, that's my wife and and

Old, are they Sorry, Sorry.

How old are your two boys? Uh,

Chris is 21

and Bower is turning 18 in three weeks time.

Ooh. Yeah. It's really strange.

But it's, um, yeah, so this, this was, uh,

at a Muse concert earlier this year.

Uh, and that's why I used to go to concerts a lot

because I love music.

And over the years that, that we,

I started doing that less and less.

And then at some point I mentioned, uh,

that I would love to see news.

I haven't seen m yet, and I completely forgotten about that.

And then er had remembered

and he told Yoka, we, we need to get tickets from news,

uh, and go and see them.

So I, I really love that, that he remembered that, that that

is the thing I, I wanted to do. Yeah.

That's super cool. Oh, I've gotta be carefully,

if I put my head here, it looks like

I've got a new family. Yeah,

Exactly.

Yeah.

Uh, and final quick fire question actually.

What, what music genre are you into?

Um, rock, progressive Rock?

So Muse, um, rush used

to be my favorite band.

Um, that kind of, I've seen Iron Maid

and Metallica and things like that as well,

but I've also seen Faithless, which I really enjoy.

So I have a broad range of music.

Uh, it depends, it can, depends on the mood as well.

I like it as you go to Iron Maid

and you get progressively heavier and heavier.

So you're into heavy metal with your music as well

as in your staining of your samples.

Yeah, no, exactly.

Heavy metal used

to be really the thing I was completely into.

Um, yeah.

And, uh, what's your favorite color?

Green. Even though everything you

look at is black and white. You like green?

Yeah. Yeah. Let's go for GFP.

No, not that bright green, but,

So we've, we've talked about some of the favorite times,

you've talked about some of the difficult times as well,

and, and the challenges.

What do you do outside of work to, to chill out and relax?

Um, Have you got any hobbies?

What, what are your hobbies?

I, I don't have any particular hobbies. You hobbies

Be worried about that when you retire.

Yeah. Listening to music is, is something I still enjoy.

And then what we, what I, we do a lot in the weekend is,

is we go to our lot.

So I, I've, I used to hate the allotment.

I now never liked it.

But then again, during lockdown, that's where

we changed our plot as well.

Uh, and that's where I started to appreciate.

And so a lot of the food we eat is, is now

our own homegrown food.

That's, yeah. I, I, I, my aunt used to have allotment.

I used to do bits on it, and it was fun.

It's, oh, no, I can't commit time to that. I'd

Struggle. It's How often,

How often did you go to your allotment?

Um, well it, during the, the summer we used

to go every weekend or maybe both Saturday and Sunday.

Wow. 'cause there, there's, there is usually a lot to do.

Lots of weeding as well,

which is the annoying part, but Yeah.

Yeah. Well, it, it, it sounds excellent.

I wonder how many others got allotment.

It's a question I've never asked. I have to work on

It. Oh, that's, um,

we've, we had, uh,

em UK earlier this year.

Um, and, and all of a sudden, uh, we were talking about

bushes that were growing alongside allotments.

It nothing to do with em,

but we, the, the, the discussion was diverted from that.

'cause apparently a lot of people had allotments

and they all had their story to share.

E em uk You need that

as maybe one of the survey questions.

Do you have an allotment or not? Yes,

Exactly.

Proport there, because it's not just relaxing outta work.

You can relax at work to a degree as well.

And you said you sent this wonderful picture, which Yeah.

Uh, where, where was this? This is a lovely sunset.

This is a sunset. Um, this is in Perth in Australia.

So I, I think that's where we as

scientists are quite lucky, uh, as well, uh, that we,

we get to travel and to see quite a, quite a lot of places.

So this is where, this is in Australia, uh,

earlier this year, uh, where, yeah, you get invited

to certain meetings.

This was the Australian microscopy meeting.

I did a, a review for Microscopy Australia as well.

Um, and, and it's just wonderful.

I, but I usually spend too little time, uh, so to outside

of, of what we are supposed to do, um, there.

But this, this was one of the nice occasions. Yeah.

Um, so the other side,

the bit we haven't really talked about, uh,

we've talked about communities,

we talked about your science, your,

the facilities going to the academic career.

But you, you started very early on talking about

how you want to be a teacher and you are still arguably a

teacher and you do a lot of courses.

Uh, yes. So, so, uh, obviously based around your specialty,

so Clem courses such as this.

So how many, uh,

I bet you'll n never gonna be able to give an answer.

How many courses do you think you've taught on?

Uh, must be must be 40,

I dunno. No. Yeah. A

A lot. Both.

A lot. Yes. Yeah. And you know,

if you look at this classroom size, you sent a picture,

there must be probably 40 probably in the classroom as well.

Yeah. Yeah. So this, this was just before lockdown.

This is the very last thing I did before lockdown.

This is in, in Portugal with Aaron tr Fields.

And this, this was, again, it's a Clem school.

Um, and really, um, Aaron,

Aaron uses this term MacGyver.

So not everybody has all the sophisticated,

uh, tools you can do correlated microscopy with.

But basically what we taught in that course is even

with the basic tools you can do very nice

and very good, uh, correlative microscopy, I mentioned that,

that collaboration with Jazz Carlton, um, which,

which got a nature paper where, where we celebrated, um,

that was done with these special imaging dishes.

Just a convo imaging dish, just an electro microscope.

That was the whole idea of, of getting that message across

that you, you don't need to do it always that, that hard.

And, and with all the, the biggest tools you have.

Yeah, I think so. So Erin uses MacGyver.

I think I'd go, uh, Heath Robinson.

That's another example of we've,

we've used Dicky Tape, blue Tap. Exactly.

Yeah. You know, all sorts of, uh, improvisations to,

Yeah.

And, and that's where these input in-person courses are so

valuable because that's where you can show all those minute

details, all the little tips

and tricks, which are much harder to show when,

when you're doing that, uh, such,

say via Zoom or, or things like that.

Actually, I'd say arguably you are helping

to encourage people to think about tips and tricks.

'cause when, when I, I guess we,

we fairly similar age-wise, I'm, I'm guessing.

Yep. And you know, when we, I

Know how old you are.

I, I, I I'm a, I'm 50 Paul.

Okay. Then you can add nine to my,

You are 59.

I am 59. This is a complete

digress to where I was going.

Oh my God, you've not gone from 59.

Thank you. And

that's not just your camera, because I know you're in person.

Oh my. Well, see, you can't leave me speechless.

The first guest to leave me speechless. You rot. Ah, yeah.

So you will remember the days back on track. Yeah.

I believe that

Back on track with this.

I, I think we were at a generation of going through,

and I think all the generations

before was where things didn't necessarily, oh,

let's take this off necessarily work, uh, perfectly.

And we were used to technology being difficult to operate.

Computers crashing regularly when you're taking your images

crashing, your time lapse, crashing, you know, having

to improvise around it.

But credit to the manufacturers

and all the companies out there,

they've made things a lot more turnkey

so the biologist can get on with the biology.

Yeah. And, but now we're noticing when

something goes wrong, there's not as much a

determination to solve the problem,

but just find another solution

or another question that they can answer easily, rather than

to persevere, troubleshoot,

and get there in a meaningful way that there seems to be a,

a trend at the moment towards ease of use rather than,

actually, I'm not gonna get to answer my question

unless I like you did with your impact. Yeah.

And, You know, creating something to solve the problem

that I think there's fewer of that nature.

It's not, again, stereotyping to a degree.

So I think your tips and tricks encourages that mentality

to, to, to solve the problem, create a pragmatic solution.

Yeah. No e exactly.

And that, that's where, yeah, it's always the,

the biological question that should drive the technology so

that you need to use the right technology

to answer question.

So don't, don't use, I don't know, let's say cry OEM

because you need to num count the number

of mitochondria in SL that those two don't match up.

But it, it's sometimes where there are these, these buzz

words, technologies that people have heard about, seen in a,

in a, in a conference and they have to use it.

So I think that's good advice.

And actually, of course, you did send me one other picture.

Yes. I realized that that was me at the front

with you on a course in, in, was this in Bristol?

This was in Bristol.

So that, that's on one of the

embo courses on correlated microscopy.

I don't know the exact date,

but we were both a bit younger there as well.

Yeah, yeah, most definitely.

Proportionally I was a lot younger

though, I've just found. Yes.

Yeah. I I have one

other, actually, I have two other questions.

So we've gotta be careful because it's really close to time.

We've talked about all the developments.

And one question I haven't asked, you know, you,

you developed the Clem pipeline.

How difficult was it, how difficult is it still getting some

of your peers around you, researchers

with biological questions to embrace that technology

and realize it can help 'em solve a question?

Um, yeah, it is still an issue

that they will, um, you, you first need

to show a very good example, a proof

of concept study that really has made that impact.

So that that's where, for instance, again, that study

with jazz Carlton, that really changed a lot of about

how people perceive, uh, that that Clem workflow.

Um, that is, yeah.

I think that that's still hard sometimes.

Yeah. And, and I guess as a technologist,

and I'll, I'm calling you a technologist now

because I think arguably you are a technologist.

How difficult, I, I you must have come to terms with it now

and understand it, but how difficult did you find it coming

to terms that people weren't wanting to jump on this

and try it because oh my goodness, he's going

to let 'em do stuff they couldn't do before,

but they were just like, no, not interested.

Yeah. Oh, I, there,

uh, there are enough other people that are interested

and, um, that, that do, I don't know,

see the, the, the advantage of,

of using certain technologies that I I I,

I'm not too bothered about.

So if, if someone thinks, oh no, that's nothing for me,

or that's not doing it for me. I

Is is that a matured thought?

Was that, was, was it like that 15, 20 years ago?

Oh, probably I was a bit more angry young

man. It's, um,

Well, no, not that young. Yeah. I,

I'm, I'm, I'm, I was probably, uh,

not trying to, I dunno, sell the technology as much as,

as I'm, I'm I'm doing now.

Um, and, and,

and now I'm, I'm much more an advocate of,

of the technologies, uh, I was probably more

focusing on, on my own.

So take technology development

and that, that's probably, yeah, one of the things

you do have to think about, okay, it's nice

to do all the technology development.

What, what are you gonna do with it?

You, you do need to have

that biological question in the background.

Okay. So final two really quick questions.

'cause we are on the hour. Do you have any

regrets scientifically?

Um,

uh, I could've taken other career options

and I, but do I regret that?

No.

Which is cool, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, and,

and I'm, I'm happy with the way things went. Yeah.

And, and just look at your friends, work, friends,

you know, how supported they are.

You know, that picture that you sent four of, you know,

they're not just work colleagues, you know? Yeah. They,

They're, they're, they're my friends that that's, yeah.

Yeah. I think that's, again,

scientists are very lucky community in that respect.

Yeah. That you make friends even

outside your own workplace that in fact,

sometimes closer friends

outside your workplace than you do in the workplace.

Yeah. Uh, yeah.

Probably a good thing because you're living together

and work and not outside of work to the same degree.

Yeah. And if you could,

so I didn't ask you this question earlier, I'd like

to ask it, if you could do any job for a day

or a week just to sample what it'd be like to have that type

of career or in that type of environment, what would it be?

Dive instructor. A

Dive instructor.

Dive instructor that that's, you know,

I think we might have had ships, we've had astronauts,

a diving instructor that that's pretty cool

Because I, yeah.

No, I used to dive when, when we was at EML, uh,

we had a diving club and we went a lot of diving and,

and there was within the B sector, the British Sub Aqua

Club Association, that it was really

easy to become an instructor.

So I, I've, I'm, I was a trainer.

I've, um, dive dovan, uh, for many, many years.

And, and I would love to go back and do that.

But also, if you look at those, uh, dudes

that are the diving instructors, they're,

they're the cool guys, which I never got to be.

And, and do you, do you dive at all now?

No, no. I would love to do that again, but yeah.

Uh, yeah, it's always like, yeah.

What's, what's holding you back? I don't know.

There, there's, there's always other things to do as well.

I will say Paul's boys,

you've got amused concert now you know what to do

For next Christmas.

I'll definitely show them this movie. Oh my

God. You are gonna be 60.

Oh God. He said, you

Gonna be 59 car, you can have a diving party.

Yeah. Birthday.

That's only next year.

That's fine. You've got time to arrange it.

Yep. Paul, we are, we are gone the hour.

So, uh, everyone who's listening today,

thank you for listening.

Uh, please don't forget to subscribe to the channels

and, you know, you saw pictures early of Organic Kadar,

Lucy, all have been guests.

Go back, listen to 'em.

They all talk about Paul Jew and their talks as well.

And obviously the volume aim community that was with, uh,

Lucy and with Kirk.

Uh, so again, another very useful one to listen to

and many others aside.

But Paul, thank you so much for joining me today.

You've been a blast. Uh, and I've learned that you're 59.

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

It, it was, it was great fun.

I, I, I really was thinking what are we gonna talk about

during this?

Um, and yeah, we've covered a lot. Yeah.

So Paul, everyone who's listened, thank you very much.

Thank you. Thank you for listening

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