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Peter O'Toole: Hi, i'm Petro tool from the University of York, and today i'm joined by Stefan. How from Max Plank on today's my cost piece, Stefan. Hello! How are you today?

Peter O'Toole: Hi! How are you? I'm. Good. Thank you, and I I I always do A little bit of background. Kind of he'd applies to do a bit, even though obviously I know you really well, and I noticed that you're up for an award recently. And what I thought was really amazing was that the other, the other winners

Peter O'Toole: we're for Mr. R. And A. The vaccines.

Peter O'Toole: Tell me more about that. That

Stefan W. Hell: microscopy, Mr. And A. It just shows the importance of microscopy. But tell me more about the world. How important is that one? One might tend to believe that my class could be is as important as Mrna technology. Well, um, well, i'm. I think so many people who watch this interview might think so as well. Um, yeah, it's um, it's it's called the van up on seamen's thing and um,

Stefan W. Hell: it's a technology award. It's mainly given to um

Stefan W. Hell: uh engineers and scientists in Germany who have had a substantial impact in the uh development of important technologies. And I would say, the most famous person who got it was actually banner from down,

Stefan W. Hell: and not from Brown was that was the person who came up with the idea of of um building rockets to fly to to the moon actually, and he was in charge of the Apollo polar program in the United States,

Stefan W. Hell: and so that that's very famous person, But many others, of course, and of course, currently the most famous people arguably are the the Mrna people like like as Lynn Tuishi and um who are shy, and and and the rest cut um Kelly in a caricore, and so on.

Stefan W. Hell: And yourself. I'm very proud. I'm proud that that that that I can be in the same uh

Stefan W. Hell: award ceremony and kind of share the prize with with them. Of course everyone gets a ring, and the ring is not something that we're supposed to wear on your finger. That's what I've been told. It's something that you put on this place somewhere in your on a shelf, unfortunately. But uh, yeah, but it's a big, big, big honor. Okay, if it's your being that sounds like a really small price.

Stefan W. Hell: How did you display So it's so small. Well, I suspect it's not that long as you might think, because you're not supposed to wear it,

Stefan W. Hell: but I can tell you after I got it, so I I receive it on December thirteen, you know, so so I don't know what it will look like, and I think it's a kind of secret. They usually make up something so that it kind of fits to the science and to the technology achievement, you fact.

Peter O'Toole: So while star prizes we it obviously the big thing in the room is obviously your Nobel prize as well. How big is surprised was that when that was announced.

Stefan W. Hell: Um. So your question was whether it was surprise or not. Um, actually, this is actually the phone where I took the call. Yeah, Yeah. So that's where they called. And um. And yeah, I was. I didn't anticipate that they would give the price for many, many reasons.

Stefan W. Hell: Um, at least not at that time in that year, so I thought it's still to I shouldn't say controversial. It wasn't controversial, but kind of

Stefan W. Hell: sort of you know. I felt that many other things that that could be given to the price to um. So in that sense it was a price. And also I felt that

Stefan W. Hell: that

Stefan W. Hell: the the the field was not at the time so much you were as I felt it should be, and and and you know, for very good reason, I had. I had been working with my people already at that time on Mid fox, as a matter of fact,

Stefan W. Hell: so I knew that I knew that I knew that. Um! So the the the twenty thirty nanometers which were possible at that time in two thousand and fourteen, are not the end of the story. I knew it will be again. It will be better. It will be two, three, four nanometers or so.

Stefan W. Hell: And so I saw naively from my perception. I'm not done, you know. I still have to get another effect of kind of improvement, and and that is possible that I I it is possible,

Stefan W. Hell: Um. Having worked on many flux. And this is this: is this all added to the psychology that

Stefan W. Hell: it's not done, you know there's more work to be done. And then, after the work is finished, then you give the price Um! And so in that sense I was surprised I was not surprised. Um, there's in in as much as I knew that many people considered the field for a price, and that was very obvious to me,

and I can tell you why It was obvious to me,

Stefan W. Hell: because I was invited many times to Sweden to give talks.

Stefan W. Hell: I was invited in in in, in in two thousand and seven, to give a talk.

Stefan W. Hell: Um! And and and the people in the in the audience I mean um. They were from the Co. Nobel Committee in physics, by the way, not chemistry physics. And the very openly said to me, Well, this is about

Stefan W. Hell: This is about um, yeah,

Stefan W. Hell: the Nobel prize, more or less. They didn't say we are considering you for a Nobel prize. But

Stefan W. Hell: but one of one of the people there said to me, You know we're paying for the dinner that we're having now. It's no idea. Then we said, Mr. Nobel. And so it was very obvious. Yeah, in a way that that that it is about say, judging whether the field or the work is worthy a Nobel prize at some point, and then I got invited in two thousand and eight. I got it in my two thousand and nine and eleven. I spoke to the Academy, and then twelve to the Academy, and so on.

Stefan W. Hell: So I knew that that. Um! There is a kind of the interest um in the field.

Stefan W. Hell: So that's not that much of a surprise.

Peter O'Toole: I I It was really interesting to hear how that has to do just how, so that I I don't know they they do their assessments and inviting over Sweden and stuff, and I assume with the others Also

Peter O'Toole: you you said that you weren't finished, so i'm i'm I I I i'm pretty confident I know the answer to this, but i'm going to ask it for the general audience. Anyway,

Peter O'Toole: you've done it. You've you won the Nobel Prize for physics.

Peter O'Toole: I got it. Sorry it's no good price for chemistry. Then

Peter O'Toole: you've not finished. You still get you working on Mini flux. How? How?

Peter O'Toole: How do you stay? Motivated

Peter O'Toole: that? Did you think? Oh,

Stefan W. Hell: yeah, it's a very good question, because um, the Nobel Prize actually has not been a motivation

Stefan W. Hell: for me,

Stefan W. Hell: and that's why the the Nobel prize didn't didn't end my motivation, you know. Didn't put cut cut my um motivation back, I mean. I was kind of really fascinated. I I must say it's a true fascination for the idea to to get the highest possible spatial resolution.

Stefan W. Hell: It's like It's something childish. You you can say it's childish. Yeah. So I I just want to know. How far can you go?

Stefan W. Hell: And of course, on this path there wasn't no bail. That's right. Yeah. But this didn't stop me actually from from enjoying the the idea, or or or having the pleasure of just getting some shop and shop and shop, and back in bed and matter

Stefan W. Hell: um, and that's why Um! There was one has never been a motivation problem.

Stefan W. Hell: And actually one of my colleagues know that noted after I won the price at

Stefan W. Hell: Come on, it's over. Why, why are you so keen to get these things done and say it's over what you need. It's over what you what you want? Then come on this is this: Is not this not about Nobel. It's about just doing it, and and and getting somewhere and

Stefan W. Hell: um in the history of science. That was the motivation. Yes, yes, I had this childish say pleasure of finding things out and and and doing it

Stefan W. Hell: um as much as as possible, pushing it to the very end. Yeah. But but of course I was also motivated doing things that really go down in history.

Peter O'Toole: So thinking of child is things. If I take you back to when you were around ten years of age, You That's okay.

Peter O'Toole: So it's your early, earliest recollection of wanting to be something because a career. Yeah, job was that you wanted as a child.

Stefan W. Hell: Actually, honestly,

Stefan W. Hell: I've always been interested in doing science.

Stefan W. Hell: So I I was fascinated with people who who

Stefan W. Hell: I like like rocket scientists and astronauts. And of course I watch science fiction movies and this kind of things I mean um,

Stefan W. Hell: As you know, I I grew up in Communist Romania, but still be we could see. And that uh say, American

Stefan W. Hell: uh Science fiction movies, and this kind of things.

Stefan W. Hell: And of course it was, I mean I still remember um, the landing on the moon, and these kind of things and people people, of course, build rockets and and and all this stuff. And and clearly I was fascinated. I'm part of that generation that was fascinated by wow, um, um, say just um,

Stefan W. Hell: yeah,

Peter O'Toole: it's it.

Peter O'Toole: If if you, if I just concentrate on the start watching the American Tv back when you're in Rebe, was it Star Trek or Star Wars? What was your preference.

Stefan W. Hell: Um, it was Star Trek. Um uh, but but but I do not remember many details honestly. But um! It was Star Trek and some other, some some kind of science fiction. I don't know what they were called

Stefan W. Hell: and um, but but just the notion that there is a word outside our own work. Yeah, there is. There is. There is new planets, all kind of stars, maybe all kind of creatures, or whatever. Yeah, aliens, and so on. And maybe we're not just by ourselves and

Stefan W. Hell: and during my lifetime. That's how I felt as a child

Stefan W. Hell: one should be able to discover something that is totally

Stefan W. Hell: unheard of totally outlandish so, and I could be part of it in in one way or the other. Of course I didn't end up as an astronaut or as a rocket scientist or so, but I think the fascination of of of of being able to discover something

Stefan W. Hell: that was actually in Still, very early on in in my childhood

Peter O'Toole: so obviously you went through, and then went to University and did a degree, I presume, in physics orientated physics.

Peter O'Toole: When did your practice so obviously you're not in rocket science. Uh didn't take a rocket scientist to work out. You're not in bucket science. And what is it? What What brought you into microscopy.

Stefan W. Hell: Yeah, it's actually a very funny story. And um, um,

Stefan W. Hell: it's completely different if if i'm

Stefan W. Hell: if i'm very honest. And and to you um, and I. I've said that a couple of times.

Bye,

Stefan W. Hell: i'm not a microscopist, you know. I don't see myself as a microscope. By all means. You know I my classical piece of the person

Stefan W. Hell: who is fascinated by seeing small things or by different microscopes.

Stefan W. Hell: I was interested in sorting out the physics problem, and That's how I see myself. Um! And the physics problem was that you couldn't say see details below the fraction barrier.

Stefan W. Hell: I know what to sort out that um that physics problem, nothing else. And this is also why I got not sidetracked by other things like um optimizing lenses or optimizing the immersion medium, or

Stefan W. Hell: or having that amounting be. Of course, I always understood the importance of that. Say, say my first paper, actually, that was really important was about um aberrations and aberration induced by refractive index mismatches something very microscopy,

Stefan W. Hell: uh related. But but as a matter of fact, I was interested in sorting out the problem. So How did I get into my microscopy?

Stefan W. Hell: Um, Actually, I

Stefan W. Hell: I signed up with um with the Professor, who was actually on a solid State physicist, and he started it said physics in Heidelberg, where I started physics just physics.

Stefan W. Hell: Um he he had found it um a high tech company

Stefan W. Hell: and um that he sort of High-tech Company. They specialized in building laser scanners, laser scannings for off to monologue for um computer chip inspection for biological imaging and for other things,

Stefan W. Hell: and I was asked uh as a part of my Phd. In this I I I was asked to to look into um the computer chip inspection thing, and so um I use the laser scan, which is built by the company. It was called Heidelberg Instruments, and i'm I just.

Stefan W. Hell: I just took pictures, confocal pictures, laser, scanning pictures of silicon and computer chips. And so my job was to find out whether Um, whether the litography process worked well enough, or whether it were problems, and so on. And I found this extremely boring. I I was so actually it was devastated, was just about to give up uh my Phd ceases,

Stefan W. Hell: and um, and because there was no no new physics in it, you know, I mean, the only thing I did is I took pictures, and then, compared with with pre recorded electron microscopy data and um,

Stefan W. Hell: And then I've I've thought about it. What would be, say, the only what would be the problem problem or interesting problem that would still be left in microscopy. That would be worse while pursuing from a physicist's viewpoint. And so I found it's a diffraction barrier.

Stefan W. Hell: That's how I got into this. And then then I felt at some point that Yeah, I did it, breaking the fraction there. That would be the only interesting physics problem that is left because my class could be light. Mark cost. People say that's the physics of the nineteenth century. That's boring. That's that's um, And that's how I

Stefan W. Hell: how I I got started, actually, and and you may say, Okay, Um. So of course everyone can say that's the interesting problem. But I became at some point convinced that it's worse by pursuing, because what I had realized is that

Stefan W. Hell: those scientists that the scientists of those days and in the eighties will look into my class. We were not really physicists. I I don't inside anyone, but but they were mostly technicians or engineers or biologists, so I didn't have a qualification to look into the problem.

Stefan W. Hell: And um! And since I was interested in doing basic physics, I felt that if if a person, a a physicist who is interested in basic physics looks into the diffraction problem.

Stefan W. Hell: He or she may may find a solution because physicists they look at other things. They look at solid State physics, or they look into nuclear physics, or particle physics, or

Stefan W. Hell: the grand unification of forces, or whatever, but not microscopy, because microscopy is boring. That's the nineteenth century physics, and that that was actually a big insight. And so I decided to look into it.

Stefan W. Hell: And right I was. Yeah, you You say my cost is boring, I think if you to ask many undergraduates

Peter O'Toole: about microscopy, they would probably think it's boring

Peter O'Toole: because they don't realize a lot of the images that they're seeing in their lectures. The materials are formed by a microscope in quite a cool way. This I I worry. There's a disconnect, Sometimes the pictures of I'm given, and I say, used to Cgi. They they they disengaged with how the images

Peter O'Toole: of watching live sales, things inside license actually happen. So you know, I bet I bet now, biology suffering a little bit from the same thing until they start to do their Phds and start to use the higher. I mean,

Stefan W. Hell: Please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying. Actually, microscope is boring, but from a physicist viewpoint who wants to do some basic physics. That was not the um a problem that at that time looked interesting,

Stefan W. Hell: and so so that you may ask me, Why did I look. Why did I sign up with that professor? Why did I we that? Why did I do that Phd work which was boring? I mean, It's it's crazy. It's very simple, and I was born in Romania, as I mentioned, and and I immigrated into Germany and um um.

Stefan W. Hell: Of course I was interested in doing basic physics. But but at some point Um, I felt that if i'm doing, say particle physics, or something like that, I may not get it a job as a physicist.

Stefan W. Hell: There was a There was an unemployment among physicians in those days, and I felt I have to do something that that gets me a job. I have to do something applied. This is why I signed up actually business, Professor, because I had set up a company, and that's how I got into the company because I I want to do something

Stefan W. Hell: um that that gets me a job with with Ibm or so computer chips and and the rest of it. That was the motivation, and that was in a sense it was the wrong decision, because I did something that I really hate it. You know It's boring. Say, Push, pushing a button, taking a picture, and then and then I was totally frustrated. I I can tell you. I was just about to drop out.

Stefan W. Hell: I was so frustrated, and if I hadn't gotten that idea of of, or that vision of of breaking the fraction barrier, I would have dropped my thesis for sure. Yeah. And that kind of kept me going. Yeah, Yeah, Not that. Well, yeah, history to being very different at that point for many of us.

Peter O'Toole: I have a question you said you. Obviously you moved over from Romania to Germany with your found uh as as a child. How long about parents. Yeah, that was fifteen fifteen. How did you find the move

Stefan W. Hell: uh

Stefan W. Hell: it? Wasn't that difficult for two reasons.

Stefan W. Hell: Uh, First of all, Um, I was born in Romania. But um! But we were German ethnics because my ancestors had immigrated from South Western Germany to that part of the world which at that time was Austria. As a matter of fact, part of the Austin Empire um in the eighteenth century. And so we spoke kind of

Stefan W. Hell: ancient um and German dialect, like like the Amish in the States, for example, very, very similar to to the Amish

Stefan W. Hell: Um. And And so so I spoke German.

Stefan W. Hell: So it that was not a big, big, big change, so in that sense it was even easier for me, because in in Romania Well, um! The official language was Romanian, of course, and that was a foreign language for me.

Stefan W. Hell: Um. And secondly, it wasn't that difficult, because I had a very, very good school education um in in Romania. So in physics and mathematics.

Stefan W. Hell: Um, the only problem I had. I didn't speak English, not a single word more or less. The only English. What the that I spoke was actually from what I picked up from for non-dub um movies and and things like that. Um! And then I I I had

Stefan W. Hell: French as a foreign language. First of all, I have a man to get my high school, leaving certificate with French as the first foreign language, and that That was a big problem for me as well, and that's part of the

Stefan W. Hell: of how I got into microscopy, because, of course, in Germany you can study physics in German. So lectures in German, everything. But once you reach a certain level, of course you have to read. Papers and papers are in English,

Stefan W. Hell: and one of the reasons why I went into this. Um, uh where I signed up with this technology professor is because um, this technology kind of didn't require any English, because it was very technology. Let's say i'm serious and that serious at the time. At the time I did my Phd. See this,

Stefan W. Hell: I couldn't have

Stefan W. Hell: I had this interview with you.

Stefan W. Hell: Yeah. And then I had to learn it more or less. Yeah.

Peter O'Toole: So it's it's self-tour through the reading of the Yeah, unfortunately. Yeah, that they conferences and everything. Oh, you're eat Well,

Peter O'Toole: I know You're still not hyper. Confident in English, but your English is excellent, and and It's it's that's It's quite an interesting thought. You know this native speaker.

Peter O'Toole: It we we're very fortunate, uh, but I like I like the fact that you try to almost dodge learning English by choosing, and then embrace it.

Stefan W. Hell: I wish I had spent some more time on it, and learned it properly. You know. Um. Of course I manage that. That's clear. But um! But I think it's a it's it's a part. You know what i'm trying to say is actually we all live lives in the end. And of course I ended up with this microscopy, and eventually, even with a Nobel prize

Stefan W. Hell: and a part of a part of the equation of getting there

Stefan W. Hell: is, some say, very unfortunate or unfortunate circumstances, like like not speaking English, you know, uh, or or doing some suggest for the sake of of getting a job afterwards.

Stefan W. Hell: And so that that was really part of the part of the equation. So that's why I got into this technology thing into microscopy, which was the nineteenth, nineteenth century physics and boring. And And then, finally,

Stefan W. Hell: what came out a discovery if you want? Yeah, you never know. So we all have to leave lives, and it's and and our ups and scientific discoveries are very much entangled with our personal life. So just just thinking of uh

Peter O'Toole: th. It. It sounds like if you you've obviously made choices, and you haven't regretted those choices. You come close to regretting those choices. But then, actually, you've taken advantage and made the best of it, and and obviously move forward. Is there any time? Do you actually regret in your career?

Stefan W. Hell: No zero.

Peter O'Toole: That's a good answer. Isn't it? No, uh, honestly, no, nothing. Okay. What has been the best time of your career? What sort of the best is it? Back in your undergraduate? Ph. D. Postdoc: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, It' be the most exciting time that most fun time. Phd: time was was tough,

Stefan W. Hell: because because of course I I I did as well. I got about um. We get great in Germany for for for our Phd work, and I got the highest um great. I could have gotten. Yeah, there's no doubt. So I was okay. Um in in that sense. In the end I I managed to get something. I get some data and and and

Stefan W. Hell: and uh, and publish something uh, not in in a in a not in a peer review in the Sbi journal, by the way. Um, but um! What I enjoyed most actually was finding out that it's possible to overcome the diffraction barrier,

Stefan W. Hell: and and and I realized that um when I was in Finland.

Stefan W. Hell: Um! I I had this gut feeling much early on much early on, and I started out with for time. I crossed me. Why did I do that?

Stefan W. Hell: Because and it had to. I had to get the foot into the door. Yeah, And so. And the four by kind of thing was considered as technologically, very, very challenging,

Stefan W. Hell: but physically sound, so no one could argue about that. So it was physically, completely sound, and of course it was thinkable to get the spatial resolution that is better by a factor of four in the in the Z direction of Z direction.

Stefan W. Hell: But it was, it was hard to do, but technologically sound. But the other thing, like breaking the infection bear in a later direction over coming um obvious to speak um um limitations that that was considered

Stefan W. Hell: outlandish, you know.

Stefan W. Hell: I mean, many people have claimed that. So we now underestimate that. But there have been many people around in the twentieth century. Who said that I can do that? I can get a better spatial resolution, and and not all of them were not. I mean. There is, for example, this um Geraldo principle. You may have heard of it. Yeah.

Stefan W. Hell: Geraldo was on Italian and Torado the franch. I was an Italian physicist, and it came up with a principle to overcome the defection buried in a lateral direction.

Stefan W. Hell: But at the end of the day no one could get a picture.

Stefan W. Hell: You know it didn't work. You need to think about it. Of course I thought about it. So is that a viable option and real It was never work. And so all these guys who made say proposals for breaking the fraction barrier. They didn't come up with something that really works.

Stefan W. Hell: That's why people were so sceptical.

Peter O'Toole: So you you went over to Finland to Turku.

Peter O'Toole: What's it that That's another big change?

Peter O'Toole: Because I I tur you actually

Peter O'Toole: it's kind of an old city. Actually, it's a

Peter O'Toole: I actually kind of.

Peter O'Toole: I don't know it. It It was

Stefan W. Hell: it it wasn't typical Scandinavian. I didn't feel when I was there.

Stefan W. Hell: I wouldn't have um I I didn't want. I wouldn't have wanted to spend my life there. That's clear, but but

Stefan W. Hell: it wasn't that bad, you know um. Actually, since you asked me what was my happiest time of my professional life,

Stefan W. Hell: I think that

Stefan W. Hell: some stretches

Stefan W. Hell: in in Toku, where actually, quite actually, I must say I was quite happy, because, you know. But during my Phd, I I was very frustrated because I did things that that I felt are boring. I didn't actually want to to do them. I didn't just

Stefan W. Hell: out of um of this feeling that I need to have to get a job or social security also, and but in Finland, I mean, since I work on the break of the fraction barrier, I did the things that I really wanted to do

Stefan W. Hell: so. So I felt very satisfied about what I did, and so um that I got this that idea, and it was a fascinating idea. And so I was very happy about that. Um. So uh, that that was definitely a quite, quite happy part of my professional life. Yes, a quote. So, of course, Turkey is also the home of you. Well, today life-size. Uh, my yeah, That came later. Actually. So they they had just started

Stefan W. Hell: uh to invest in biotechnology in those days and they they set up a so-called center for biotechnology. And um actually it was a very um How should I put it? Um supportive atmosphere and um. So Finland was just about to join the European Union

Stefan W. Hell: at that time, so they were very much. They started to open up themselves towards Europe, you know. Philan was something in between Um, the Communist block and and and and and the Western world. And so they were just about to orient themselves towards Europe, and and so there was a Nokia became of a very important company at that time.

Stefan W. Hell: And so, um so Finland kind of opened up to the world.

Peter O'Toole: I I go change T. I'm not just looking down here.

Peter O'Toole: You then went through to Embl uh Heidelberg, and obviously now to Max Plank, where you are today, and you you talk about four P. Which is certainly I I met you, I think, for the first time you won't. Remember this for sure uh in two thousand and one. So I was a student on a embl uh an Mba course at

Peter O'Toole: uh, and you were lecturing about four Pi, which is a biologist that was not by a chemist That was kind of mind blowing. But I I came down at the end to ask more questions, because I knew I wanted to understand it

Peter O'Toole: properly. Not just a shoe, and that was cool. But from four part you went on stage when It's Gsd: you went to res off You went to three. It's got me instead. Yeah,

Stefan W. Hell: You see, I don't see it like that, Peter. I mean very understandable that you see it from the technique viewpoint. Um. But, as I said, I mean

Stefan W. Hell: I I wouldn't call myself from my cross. Because why? Because I mean just in the principle I mean just the concept. I want to sort out a problem. And so i'm looking into what makes it tick, you know which one's if you got most pride in. Then, as to all of those which one is the that the

Stefan W. Hell: maybe the pinky step or the the on your back. Having realized, I tell you what what it is

Stefan W. Hell: I'm proud of. Have I have having been the first person who realized that the way to overcome the diffraction barrier is to look into the state transitions of dice, to to just see the die as the facilitator for over time the reflection barrier,

Stefan W. Hell: and that is a very, very big step, because if you, if you look into um um say the history of development of microscopy in those days people thought the way to overcome the diffraction barrier um is to squeeze the light through tiny holes. You feel the optics

Stefan W. Hell: strategy was to to change the way

Stefan W. Hell: the waves propagate. So the the light propagates, put it through tiny holes and a completely different approach. Look into the die,

Stefan W. Hell: turn it on and off. That's the way to go. And this is actually what what turned out to be the decisive step. And so i'm proud of that. Yes, so I guess we could. Uh

Stefan W. Hell: I I can't say this. I don't know if I could say at the man who bought doughnuts into science, but but it's not. Yes, I know. I've associated with doughnuts. That's but it's it's not. It's not the doughnut, you know it is. No, that's here is a joking, joking. But it's it's the fact that you take the dye and see the die as a facilitator for a resolution.

Peter O'Toole: Yeah, and so it's by Kevin. So fluorescent is certainly from my biochemistry is way to buy physics for for essence. I quite. I just love the manipulation.

Stefan W. Hell: Yeah, I mean, look, look at this that paper. Why is it that paper so important. Yeah, It's because it has the transitions of the States in it, because it has it says, Okay, i'm using the states of the dye. Yeah, to to make a sharper picture in the end.

Stefan W. Hell: So i'm turning it off, and it's on off, of course, is the key to all super resolution methods that we know so far, whatever they are called, I mean call them time storms that resolve pain, whatever mean flux.

Stefan W. Hell: In the end it boils down to that from a business viewpoint from a biologist viewpoint. Of course all of the different. I understand that. But if you look at it from from the basic science um perspective, it. It boils down to the same principle.

Peter O'Toole: I'm going to change tack a little bit. Now

Stefan W. Hell: what do you do outside of work to chill out,

Stefan W. Hell: and the youngest is seven and a half. You know what I did last night,

Stefan W. Hell: actually, or in the afternoon as well. I He wants to become a professional soccer football player. Yeah, and um. And so I I played football with him,

and you're not aching now.

Stefan W. Hell: Sorry, and you know, in paid, or I think of anybody. No, no, no, i'm not i'm, not I'm actually well trained. I must say I I I do a lot of hiking, or or also some running, you know, up the hills here. Um,

Stefan W. Hell: I would say, altogether about maybe seven, eight hours per week at least, running and hunting. Uh well, I mean not serious hiking, in a sense like, but but just just going up the heels and and um

Stefan W. Hell: and uh, yeah, that's that's what I like, and so I I think i'm i'm in good shape.

Peter O'Toole: So the next uh Elmie meeting that you attend we'll need to get you on the football team for the uh academics first. Yeah. Well, yes, you could try. Yeah, free top Is there? Is there a foot body? But I didn't know there is. One. Yeah, it's a on a on the opening dayways. So we call the call facility, so that the pre- Congress workshops There's an afternoon football game where the the academic team take on the commercial team.

Peter O'Toole: So you have all the different companies playing together. It's a really nice way to break down those barriers between a the companies themselves, with the companies and the academics, and just brings everyone so together for a bit of fun. Uh: well,

Peter O'Toole: yeah, punish. Obviously there's a bit of competition in there.

Peter O'Toole: Uh, I would say the academics are currently winning like. Oh, no, no! They might have leveled it this year. Yes, Amsterdam next year,

Peter O'Toole: or or the Netherlands. Uh: come on over and join the team. Okay, he's good. So what about other hobbies size uh the hiking with your son.

Stefan W. Hell: Yeah, I mean um.

Stefan W. Hell: Well, that that's basically that's basically I I really enjoyed and spent a lot of time. I I I have a personal train as well. So I'm: I'm doing work out. Yeah. So at least twice a week. So

Stefan W. Hell: so okay, if you have football and and you do have a Pt. And and and do this kind of things I mean, It's easily filled up your week with the job. Of course, please collect size. It's quite important to you. Then help for health, I guess, and well, and also for well being and feeding a healthy and and the rest of it sure. Yeah.

Peter O'Toole: And your children go on heights with you.

Stefan W. Hell: Yeah, they do. Yeah, Yeah. And I I like it very much, because you know, you can have discussions, and and the oldest is um close to it, about eighteen. Yeah. And you I have discussions with him about all kind of things.

Stefan W. Hell: Um politics, I mean. He spent a year in in the States um in in a high school just and of course i'm trying to to teach them to have a more global perspective on things, and and and try to explain the word to them as much as I can, of course. And um, So I enjoyed it very much, you know.

Stefan W. Hell: Now he's try being in the Uk right now. I think politics is what everyone knows. I just heard you get in the New Prime minister today. Quite exceptional times. I've got yeah, yeah, everywhere, Everywhere you look, It's very exceptional. It It is globally. It is just,

Peter O'Toole: I, I I guess, for the youngsters. This will be their norm, whereas I think we've played through twenty thirty years of

Peter O'Toole: yeah policy, if you actually just

Peter O'Toole: not really going to big steps. But it's quite different at the moment, thinking on a

Peter O'Toole: the best times. What about the most difficult times you've had in your community like challenge

Stefan W. Hell: professionally, you mean from

Stefan W. Hell: Um: Yeah,

Okay.

Stefan W. Hell: Several times I thought I would drop out of signs. Yeah,

Stefan W. Hell: Yeah, I don't want to mention names. They They actively fought against it. They they they kind of said. This guy is exaggerating.

Stefan W. Hell: This guy is just making a big fuss because he wants to have a job or something and don't believe him. Some even said

Stefan W. Hell: two famous people actually. Um.

Stefan W. Hell: Of course I want to mention a name they they claimed

Stefan W. Hell: privately,

Stefan W. Hell: and even in writing that my data are not reproducible.

Stefan W. Hell: Um, it came out. How do I know? Because I one case I can. I can honestly tell you I applied for a job in

Stefan W. Hell: in that on Germany.

Stefan W. Hell: Um at a research institution at a university

Stefan W. Hell: and um um

Stefan W. Hell: they were. They had. They considered two people, me and somebody else

Stefan W. Hell: and um, and then they ask for let us and send out like um request for let us uh that's that's quite normal. Of course, if you, if you, if you apply for for jobs

Stefan W. Hell: and and one of them

Stefan W. Hell: quite famous person in in the field, microscopy field, roll back that

Stefan W. Hell: you shouldn't take this guy

Stefan W. Hell: because um

Stefan W. Hell: he's his data is not reproducible. I mean, I don't know why he said that. But and how do I know? Because the person actually in charge had to face a very tough decision,

Stefan W. Hell: and I could figure out even who it was. I never made it public. But this is just an example that was tough, you know. If you, if you you you cannot defend yourself. Yeah. But but there is a room around that. Your stuff is not reproducible,

Stefan W. Hell: Um, or or it's not true. And it's development of super resolution, as they call it, now wouldn't lead anywhere. And this is all the lonely and this kind of stuff that's really hard. Then the alternative that you you you drop out of science, because if you have such letters, of course you never know. I mean you can easily drop out of signs if it Those letters are around, and those guys will, written by established people

Peter O'Toole: they they must have I I can't believe they would have done it maliciously. They must have thought they would tell you. They must have

Stefan W. Hell: thought they were telling the truth. I I I Yeah, it is mixture of them. It's it's it's it's it's both malicious and and believing in in it. So I you are right. I think these guys really thought that they are right,

Stefan W. Hell: and of course

Stefan W. Hell: they had the intention of of making sure that I wouldn't get the job because they felt competed. That was clearly the case. And so this is the ugly side of science, and it really happens, and i'm saying, why i'm saying this now without mention. Names. Of course i'm saying it. I I want to tell young people

Stefan W. Hell: if if you have an interesting idea, or or you might face this ugly um ugly side of science.

Stefan W. Hell: And so this is nothing that is unheard of, and even I, who became a Nobel Laureate in the end, had to go through this pain,

Stefan W. Hell: and I can tell you I mean I I had a couple of sleepless nights because I didn't know how this would work out.

Stefan W. Hell: I mean, if if there is this this notion lingering around that your stuff is not that I was thinking what the hell is not reproducible. Did I publish something which was maybe wrong or so, because you don't know. Then I went to all my papers in my head. Would there be a problem. Could there be a problem,

Stefan W. Hell: you know, and it was wrong. But I of course I was shocked. Yeah, I was shocked.

Peter O'Toole: Did that motivate you in any way.

Stefan W. Hell: Yeah. But of course, in the first moment it's not motivating, because devast that you feel the feel. You know it's like like somebody shooting at you, but you don't know where it comes from. Doesn't come behind the tree, or from from the rooftop, or or where does it come come from? You know you. You don't know what is wrong, you know, and and I had to learn that I had to go through this and and um

Stefan W. Hell: eventually.

Stefan W. Hell: Yes, I think at some point you

Stefan W. Hell: you get used to it and say, Okay, I am going to do whatever I can in order to get my stuff done, and i'm um, and of course it may make me very careful. So I've always double check the data and the rest of it, and be very clear not to make it saturated claims, and to justify everything.

Stefan W. Hell: It's very likely that you face something unless it's a it's um say, um! How should I call it um

Stefan W. Hell: an experiment that is just very simple and clear cut. But like if you, if you discover nuclear vision or so, of course it's one experiment, and then it's easily reproducible. But if it's a development, you know where,

Stefan W. Hell: which which takes several steps, then it's very likely that you face resistance, because people don't want it

Stefan W. Hell: with many people out of business in a way, I mean. Look at the near field Optics people, I mean. I don't know. You may not remember that field, but being a business, I remember very well in the nineties. The notion was the only way to go about. The res resolution is near field optics, and they were in Europe at least ten, fifteen on and and worldwide about forty groups who pursue that.

Stefan W. Hell: I mean. They were not happy about it when I can say No, no, no. If it is not a way to go, you do it just with the die. Okay, and just use normal, a focus focused light. But they were not happy. I mean Grants and and the rest of it, and jobs and and so on.

Peter O'Toole: But when I talk to Richard Henderson and talking about using electron microscope instead of X-rays and the X-ray community not necessarily a welcoming gate open to it to start with.

Stefan W. Hell: Of course he put them out of business to some extent. Yeah, sure.

Peter O'Toole: Yeah. But as we go, I I guess electric and petrol cars, you know, times change. Yes, it takes time. There's always skepticism because it's new. It's novel, and it's not proven, and it doesn't work straight away. It takes time to be developed. Actually, that that's a good point. Actually,

Peter O'Toole: a lot of your physics has now ended up in commercial products

Peter O'Toole: which is vital.

Peter O'Toole: I think I think that I think that's yeah. Uh, it's the commercialization of your

Peter O'Toole: physics, and it diffracts in the breaking the diffraction that that is enabled

Peter O'Toole: Not necessarily you, but your your work to have had the end impacts.

Peter O'Toole: Difficult is it to get it commercialized?

Stefan W. Hell: A. As as you alluded to, actually a set up in two thousand and eleven and two thousand and twelve two companies that are related a barrier, and by your instruments,

Stefan W. Hell: and my main motivation was to to um um

Stefan W. Hell: to increase the speed of, of of how should I put it

Stefan W. Hell: of use of wide usage, of other technologies?

Stefan W. Hell: Um, if you work with big companies that makes sense, and and and at times that that may be the right choice, and no doubt about it. But of course many general decisions and big companies are very complicated and and more time consuming.

Stefan W. Hell: But if you set up a startup company, and and and all the people work there, are you from a students. Then it's much easier, because if you can talk to them and and so on. And that's that's why I decided, after having collaborated with the big company um uh to to to commercialize it

Stefan W. Hell: through a spin off. It's been out,

Stefan W. Hell: and um

Stefan W. Hell: and and I think that's very important, because um because take min flux, for example. So

Stefan W. Hell: I had a basic idea for for for that. Um, um. You call it technology

Stefan W. Hell: back in two thousand and eleven. So I was that I was very clear that this, this, this this is going to be very important. That was was very, very, very convinced about it. Okay, Then it Um was published in two thousand and sixteen. Okay, and the first commercial product came in twenty, twenty, twenty, twenty-one,

Stefan W. Hell: and just four years between the first demonstration, and in a paper in science and and the commercial product, and that's relatively fast

Stefan W. Hell: in A, in a big company that would take

Stefan W. Hell: six seven years or so, and because there would be maybe one or two or three years until they they decide that it's It's um, that's worse. Why, pursuing and so on. So it always takes time. But small companies can make very quick decisions. And now

Stefan W. Hell: there are many groups around the world. Um, who have access to the technology at least fifteen or twenty or so by now, I mean only yeah, two years or less than two years after it became commercially available. And that makes the technology Um, um, of course

Stefan W. Hell: much, much,

Stefan W. Hell: much more accepted, because there are papers out there that um um showing that this is useful and so on. If if we would. If we were the only one who did that, of course people would be skeptical, and they could argue Why, this is good. Why is it useful for and so on? So it's very, very important to to disseminate the technology very quickly.

Peter O'Toole: But does that not drain a huge amount of effort and and create. I'd imagine there must be a lot of stress when it was starting up at the fact. The financial responsibilities. There must be highs and lows associated.

Stefan W. Hell: I'm. I'm. Of course I have shares, and and I'm. Advising the company. So what I do. Actually, I I see the Ceo once a week or twice a week. So on Saturdays, usually so, we have a more or less like a jewel fix or so where we meet up um at at on Saturday at noon, or something for two hours, and and discuss

Stefan W. Hell: discuss things. Um and um, you know. Um, of course it it. It took me some time. Yeah, but it was,

Stefan W. Hell: and um

um

Stefan W. Hell: financial things, not so much because, having done my Phd. Work in a in a startup company, I learned it I learned that it's good not to have Vcs.

Stefan W. Hell: And so I decided, together with the other uh founders,

Stefan W. Hell: not to take money from from financial markets, or from a bank or something, but to kind of start, say, with a small amount of our own money. So we put together two hundred thousand euros um, and then build the first system. So the first system had a margin, of course, and we that margin we' the next system, and so on,

Stefan W. Hell: and and in this way actually, we succeeded in setting up a company that now Um has over one hundred employees

Stefan W. Hell: right without without any penny from outside. That's that's a true success story. And so why did it work, Peter? It's very unusual. It worked because the people in the company had very unique skills. They were extremely good. They knew exactly what to do. They were very well trained,

Stefan W. Hell: many work here at the Max, one with me, or most of them uh some of them had done Phd somewhere else. One of them wasn't a better just for slap in uh in uh Genoa. The other one was in Sweden at Caroline's come. But it came back, and a lot of experience, and you exactly what to do,

Stefan W. Hell: and then developed systems that are, as I believe, very useful. A hundred employees is huge, and and i'll put in time for still growing, by the way, still growing, look looking for people all the time. Yeah,

Peter O'Toole: four years to going from start to product. It sounds like a long time, but I know in the world of microscopy. Certainly

Peter O'Toole: it could be double that get it to an end product, because some of the big companies that there's a lot of reputation. Everything has to be very polished.

Stefan W. Hell: Exactly. Exactly, and it has. The The thing is, I mean, I can demonstrate something in the lab and show a picture, and so on. And there is a The physical principle is demonstrated, and so on. But it's a different story. If you build something

Stefan W. Hell: that can be used in a po push button way by any biologist, so that that is totally a different different story. And I think about all the pitfalls that could come up.

Stefan W. Hell: And then, of course, it takes time. It takes time to build a system that is really robust, and and works the way you want.

Peter O'Toole: I'm going to change topics again, and i' to ask some quick fire Questions: Okay. So

Peter O'Toole: preference Pc. Or Mac.

Stefan W. Hell: Um. Pc: Yeah, Because I'm. Used to it. I like Max. I must say so. I like the philosophy behind Apple, and so to be very honest with you. But, Pc: that's what I what I use That's okay,

Stefan W. Hell: Mcdonald's or Burger King Burger King. I don't know why, but it's very,

Stefan W. Hell: and I have. I haven't been to Berkeley for years, and I haven't been to Mac for years. Um,

Stefan W. Hell: I don't know what what they have now. I I I would take something, perhaps even something vegetarian, if they have something like a like um sort of a meat replacement or something. I would take that. I would try that.

Stefan W. Hell: Oh, gosh! Who was it was saying on this? It actually It's the new plant based on it? Yeah, exactly. I wouldn't. I would try it. I like I like trying out new things.

Peter O'Toole: Okay, coffee or tea or coffee, black.

Stefan W. Hell: Okay, uh espresso or America uh both. Actually, I'm: I'm usually espresso depending on depending on where I am in in Italy, of course. Um, it's always expressed. Or so. Yeah, Okay,

Peter O'Toole: be of a wide

Stefan W. Hell: um,

Stefan W. Hell: actually both

Stefan W. Hell: um beer and wine. So fifty percent beer fit. But um! I like um beer without alcohol. I I I drink beer, but but usually without alcohol and wine. Of course there is no wine that is not alcoholic. But um.

Stefan W. Hell: But uh, yeah,

Stefan W. Hell: at times with if it's with alcohol wine without alcohol beer. Okay,

Peter O'Toole: uh chocolate or cheese.

Stefan W. Hell: Say it again, Chocolate or cheese

Stefan W. Hell: um chocolate

Peter O'Toole: milk or dark

Stefan W. Hell: yup.

Peter O'Toole: Oh, gosh! That's advice uh if you went to a conference

Peter O'Toole: uh and all we when you were you were taken out in this uh Nobel that was paying for it. Uh, quite often. You don't actually get to choose your food. Uh, it will be put in front of you, whatever it is. What would be the best thing someone could put in front of you.

Peter O'Toole: Well, you could. That's a results. I'm really pleased that that's what I've got.

Stefan W. Hell: I didn't get the question, so I maybe I didn't understand you. They What's your favorite food,

Stefan W. Hell: my favorite food?

Stefan W. Hell: Oh, actually, I don't have a favorite food. Um! I had this discussion for some reason. Two hours ago with somebody else. Um, so it's it. I eat anything. Yeah,

Stefan W. Hell: unless it's It's obviously disgusting. But but I don't have um something that that I would regard. This is my favorite food. I eat pasta I meet, and typically kind of

Stefan W. Hell: sort of more inclined to what vegetarian.

Peter O'Toole: But but it's not that I wouldn't need need or something. Yeah, Okay. So I was going to ask what is your least favorite food? What if so, it was put in front of you got I just I just can't eat that.

Stefan W. Hell: Uh no, I I I think i'm i'm very easy. So so i'm. I'm smiling at people if they ask? Oh, is there something that you don't eat or so? Is there something you, and especially in the States? You have this you constantly get this question If you, if you were invited, or you invite people, you have to ask what what they eat or what they don't eat.

Stefan W. Hell: This is something that is very, yeah,

Stefan W. Hell: very, very easy. No problem, you know. I went to China a couple of times, and you get all all these interesting things like

Stefan W. Hell: I. I don't know what you know chicken, eyeballs, or whatever. Well, I mean it's It's not what I would pick normally, but I wouldn't mind eating it if I had to,

Peter O'Toole: and usually presented very nicely, though. Helps early bird or night out

Stefan W. Hell: honestly. Nine hour.

Peter O'Toole: Okay, uh we'll call Tv

Peter O'Toole: both. But I i'd prefer a book if it's good. Yeah. And i'm also also to link to what sort of genre book do you read? Yeah, Um,

Stefan W. Hell: yeah, I'm: I'm: i'm trying to. Well, sometimes I I read um books about um. You know

Stefan W. Hell: political topics. You know about what's going on in the world, and

Stefan W. Hell: how people see the development going on in the States or Um, Europe, or China, or Russia, or whatever. So so sometimes it's um. I like it to get an angle at a different angle from somebody who has a different view on things. Not necessarily my own ideas, of course.

Stefan W. Hell: Um and um, I I admit, three years back I wanted to understand Trump a bit better. Yeah, the the President at that time I read the out of the deal just to see what kind of person is this: Yeah. So well,

Stefan W. Hell: you know. But

Stefan W. Hell: yeah, it's why it's your your your annual

Peter O'Toole: Yeah, I I I I tend to look at the front pages of most newspapers across the spectrum to try and get. Yeah, that's why they're doing all the articles just to try and balance to every because they always feeding us one more.

Stefan W. Hell: It's hard to get neutrality, I think. Yeah, sure, sure, sure. But of course you can read something without agreeing with somebody. Yeah, it's it's it's um very clear, and of course. But but but I don't believe in black and white, you know I mean I don't believe in that. I think

Stefan W. Hell: one has to look as a scientist. One One is gear to what's understanding causal effects, what is called what is the fact and not this is good. This is bad. This guy is good in Guys bad. I mean it doesn't work, and it's not. This is not. That's how we should see the word. There's always interesting to see at different angles. Yeah. And then you, of course, you can put things in perspective and come up with your own conclusion. That's what I like. Um, personally.

Peter O'Toole: No, that sounds sounds very good. Uh, do you have when you watch Tv? Is there any uh? So I asked, which attend this, this what Tv vice was? In other words, what Tv would he not really want to admit to watching? And then he admitted to watching, breaking bad, which actually wasn't that bad.

Stefan W. Hell: Do you have any team? I watch Tv, you know. I watch soccer games.

Stefan W. Hell: That's not advice. No, no, no, that's what I do. You know, the only Tv that I watch? Yeah, So sometimes news. But I don't. I I actually what I do is i'm every morning when I get here to the office or so I I I I have um a um

Stefan W. Hell: um as press or something black, of course, and i'm scheming actually through them. Um, Um, three, four major newspapers, American

Stefan W. Hell: with German British. So I have subscriptions, a couple of them, and then Um, yeah, I'm. I'm

Stefan W. Hell: checking them out.

Peter O'Toole: What is your uh? Do you have a favorite film

Peter O'Toole: favorite movie?

Stefan W. Hell: Okay?

Stefan W. Hell: Well,

Stefan W. Hell: there is one um that you know.

Stefan W. Hell: It kind of. Reminds me of my Finland days. Um! It's called night on earth. I don't know if you heard of it. No, it's got night on earth. That's why it's called. I'm not saying this something that you that you have to watch, you know. Uh, but um! It made made a lasting impression on me. It came out in the nineties,

Stefan W. Hell: and it's about um it's basically

Stefan W. Hell: nights in, and it's all about cab drivers or taxi drivers in various places of the world. Los Angeles, New York. Um. And Finland, of course. Yeah.

Stefan W. Hell: And and it's always a short story, and Rome, and so on, and about what happens actually in a in a cap while a person is being driven from the airport to

Stefan W. Hell: home, and it's it's about cultural things. So So how things?

Stefan W. Hell: Yeah, how different things are in different cultures. It's it's kind. It's very hilarious. Um, it's it's not not very intellectual, but it's kind of funny, and and especially also the finland part um made me think a lot. So it was wasn't when I was about to go to Finland, and so so many of the prejudices that that were

Stefan W. Hell: kind of um conveyed by the movie. I found them sort of vindicated. Actually I the premi sounds actually really good. I guess that's okay. I probably will give it a go, but it's a dash. Baby. Don't you have a baby Christmas Bill?

Peter O'Toole: I love actually. Ah, good choice. That's what you mean. Yeah, I'd love actually is a Oh, yes, we are nearly up to the hour, Mark. I I I just got a few other quick questions to ask you my questions.

Peter O'Toole: How large is your research group now?

Stefan W. Hell: Well, I have to, but they are both small. So I work with about um. I would say four people in in both groups there. So we are here organized as kind of departments, but they are not departments in um, in a sense that you, you know, in English or or American sense. Um,

Stefan W. Hell: I have people that I work very closely with um

Stefan W. Hell: like three Phd. Since here in Gotting, and another two Ph. J. Students in Heidelberg,

Stefan W. Hell: and then I have chemists who work quite independently. I'm. I'm kind of telling them what I want to have kind of die, or or a certain link, and so on. And i'm kind of just

Stefan W. Hell: course, list here in that direction. But i'm not interfering with the daily work.

Stefan W. Hell: Um those people that that really work on main flux or means that. And this kind of thing I talk to every day,

Stefan W. Hell: sometimes um repeatedly, many times, and so I following them very closely. So if you ask me how large is my group, the question Maybe eight people. Yeah, nine people

Stefan W. Hell: Has it always been that sort of size it it it was. It was larger at times. Yeah, and around, I would say, between two thousand and six and and ten um, many more. Many more people were in my groups, and actually maybe maybe thirty, forty or so.

Stefan W. Hell: Uh. But now it's it's much more, because I like to work with few selected people. So all the people that I have, I would say, without exception, are really very, very good

Stefan W. Hell: people who could make an academic career if they want it. Yeah.

Stefan W. Hell: And so I I enjoy that because I can work with them, and they are effective, and they they um I can some influence, of course, the work and and vice versa. So so I really like that much better. So I said this one of the privileges. Once you have the Nobel. You are not forced to

Stefan W. Hell: to turn out papers and and and things like that. And honestly, I don't worry much about whether it's coming out in

Stefan W. Hell: nature assigns. So I don't know what. Yeah, of course, if you can publish it there, we do. But but I think um if it's an archive somewhere. That's for me. Then the job is for done for me more or less. That's how I see it. Uh to you, on on the It's it's final questions, because, you see, I, we are up to just over the hour, and I

Peter O'Toole: how do you find publishing

Stefan W. Hell: change tremendously? I I changed tremendously. Um, because what I i'm, I think that the archive is really really important. Um improvement, because, you know, when I publish the stead idea, and also when I had a first um the first explanation proof that that would work. Um,

Stefan W. Hell: Of course Nature and science rejected the paper. Um, By the way. Um the first step. Um um experimental proof. And I was worried about priority, of course, because I felt if it's important, then it won't matter that much where it is published, but that it is published, and you have priority.

Stefan W. Hell: And now, because there is archive,

Stefan W. Hell: you always get priority on the very same and very very day that you want. And so the journals have lost their power in um for for determining when you have priority, I think this is really important. This is a major change, and what they do now is, of course, they want to

Stefan W. Hell: raise the bar for quality, whatever that is. Yeah, and so it's harder to get your paper finished to ask all kind of questions, and you have to fill out many forms. And and this kind of stuff, you know. Um, but that's the only thing that is left for them,

Stefan W. Hell: I think. Um, I think Pop, publishing has changed tremendously, because because you, you, everyone is now capable of of of getting priority basically on the day he or she wants

Peter O'Toole: that. It's

Stefan W. Hell: It's going to be interesting to see how the next five to ten years play out, I think, with that. It's It's going to change even more, because, you know, I mean, if you make a big discovery, you know a really big discovery. The only thing that matters is priority.

Peter O'Toole: It will be

Peter O'Toole: Yeah,

Peter O'Toole: I don't know where it's. I don't think anyone knows where it's going to go. So I think we will.

Peter O'Toole: We'll see. Anyway, Stephan, we are

Peter O'Toole: apologies slightly over the hour. But thank you so much for joining me today. It's been fascinating to listen to in in for many, many respects. Uh thanks for everyone who's watched or listened uh to this podcast today in my cross piece you person good tips with Eric's be mentioned, which is Henderson's been mentioned so full. So please go what the others. But, Stefan, thank you so much for your time stakes. I know it's Leave it. Thank you, Peter, for the best.

Stefan W. Hell: Bye bye,

Stefan, thank you very much.