The Microscopists Mental Health Special with Beth Cimini, Kedar Narayan, and Jason Rodgers
Welcome to The Microscopists, a bite sized bio podcast hosted by Peter O'Toole, sponsored by Zeiss Microscopy. Today on the Microscopists
Peter O'Toole:Today on the Microscopists, we have a special edition all about mental health. And I have some brave guests joining me today. Beth Simone shares just how hard her depression hit her during grad school.
Beth Cimini:Dealing with things that had happened to me, you know, some childhood trauma and again being in a long distance relationship, being far away from my family. And, it manifested to the point where, I just I had whole days or sometimes, you know, strings of days where I couldn't get out of bed.
Peter O'Toole:Kedar Narayan talks about the stigma surrounding mental health.
Kedar Narayan:But certainly for Indian families, I think depression is still a bit of a foreign concept. I think it's becoming a lot better now, but it I think the instant, reaction is, it's one of those American things.
Peter O'Toole:And the young Jason Rogers reminds us why mental health awareness and seeking health is so important.
Jason Rodgers:In my eyes, the mental health is no different to something physical. So in the same way, you would go see the doctor because you have, you know, a cold or infection or something. Go see the doctor to see about your mental health.
Peter O'Toole:All on this very special episode of the Microscopists. Hi. Welcome to this special episode of The Microscopists. I'm Peter O'Toole from the University of York. And today, I'm joined by 2 previous guests, Beth Simone.
Peter O'Toole:Hello, Beth.
Beth Cimini:Hey.
Peter O'Toole:And Kaydar and Rayan. Kaydar, hello. Hello. So this is a a different recording to usual because, actually, I I asked both of them during their podcast what the most challenging time was in their careers, and they I can't remember what your answers were. But I remember afterwards, you both said, well, actually, maybe I should have said.
Peter O'Toole:And so this is a mental health special of the microscopies. Because I thought it was amazing. And, and I recorded with both of you actually almost within a week of each other. I think you're one after the other and you both came out and said, oh, Pete, I did have this time. I didn't have to share it or not.
Peter O'Toole:I thought actually it'd be really amiss not to share this, because I think your problems are gonna resonate with many people. Even if it doesn't resonate with the listener themselves, it'll be someone that they know. And I think we re I there's lots of questions I have to understand mental health issues. I I've seen it firsthand, but actually to us, I, I don't think I've asked a lot of the questions I'd like to ask. So thank you very much for agreeing both to come today.
Peter O'Toole:I think both of your stories will be very different. So actually, why don't I start, maybe with CADAR on this one, is how did this actually start? How did it manifest? How do you recognize this?
Kedar Narayan:So for me, well, when we don't have sort of mental health issues, for me, clearly, it it it was depression. I went through a period, during my post doc, which was very, very difficult. But as I was thinking about it, it actually started with my childhood. I was one of those sort of academically, like, gifted. I used to do, quite well in school, but that, led me to fall into 2 mental traps, which was 1, because I thought things came easy, that, things should continue to come easy all the time.
Kedar Narayan:That was trap number 1. And trap number 2 was I got very used to, comparing myself, with my peers based on these quantitative metrics, you know, grades and ranks and so on. And of course once you get to undergrad and grad school and then you post doc, post doc, these things really break down. Right? All of a sudden you've got these non quantitative parameters and there are people who, start doing very well, deservedly so.
Kedar Narayan:And this for me started really, was it resulted in this edifice sort of coming crumbling down. Things were very hard for me, and I wasn't used to coping with that. And I also realized that there were a lot of other things that perhaps don't quite fall easily into, these categories that I was used to that could account for scientific success. So, I really started struggling, I'd say, towards the end of grad school, and then in my post doc was when, things really sort of came together. And that's when I went through and this is reflected in even my publication record, right, but 3 years of prime scientific, life, which I lost to, to depression.
Kedar Narayan:And I'm happy to later go into details about what it actually felt like, etcetera, etcetera. But, essentially, that's how this thing came about for me.
Peter O'Toole:So so so the first thing that strikes me though is, actually, I'm quite I feel quite sorry for you because I remember when you get when you graduate from your PhD and you go to into your postdoc, you feel it's quite actually, for me, it was a very different period. That was a what a real self confidence going into it and and loving it and thinking I'm the big m,
Kedar Narayan:you know, as a big
Peter O'Toole:soon realized because it's a different question to of studying. Oh my god. This is hard work again. Right. So I I just have one question.
Peter O'Toole:Was it because you were no longer or you looked around and you weren't the very best? Maybe you were the best. Or was it just that you felt that you should know more and you were failing?
Kedar Narayan:Well, it was a combination of things. So, I I did join a high profile, high pressure lab, and, mentorship was not the highest priority at the time. And, equally on the flip side, I wasn't I didn't know how to articulate the fact that I needed help when I needed it. Right? So those two things were at work.
Kedar Narayan:I was coming off of a difficult, breakup. I was also moving into into a new town. So there were all these, other factors, but at at the core of it, I would say it was the, breaking down of really this carefully curated self image that I had and then, understanding very slowly that, okay, this this humbling is actually a good thing. But when you're going through the process of getting humbled, of course, it it's not very easy. So it was it was a combination of, factors for me.
Peter O'Toole:So, Beth, what about you? What how did, you know, how did it manifest itself with yourself?
Beth Cimini:Yeah. A lot of things in in your story, resonate with me. But for me, it was a little bit earlier. It was basically right from the beginning of graduate school, but, certainly once we got into sort of 2nd and third year, and sort of you went off into your own lab and intern projects. Graduate school is the first time I'd lived more than, you know, 90 miles from my home.
Beth Cimini:I was doing it was in a long distance relationship, and I ended up in a lab that it was a very good lab. And my mentor was a very kind person, but, she was very hands off, and I thought that was fine. I was warned she was very hands off, and I was like, oh, but I didn't know what I didn't know about myself. You know? And I just really struggled with graduate school and just dealing with things that had happened to me, you know, some childhood trauma and, again, being in a long distance relationship, being far away from my family.
Beth Cimini:And, it manifested to the point where, I just I had whole days or sometimes, you know, strings of days where I couldn't get out of bed. And I had really bad depression. And I I, you know, I not only didn't know how to ask for help, I didn't understand that I needed help. It really took my friends being there for me and saying like, you seem like you're struggling in a way that I think people could help you. And I was resistant at first.
Beth Cimini:I'm like, no. No. Grad school's just hard for everybody. You know, we're all we're all struggling. They're like, no.
Beth Cimini:You probably need to go talk to someone about what's going on with you. And, and I thankfully listened to them and thank again, thankfully had that support structure there for me. And, but ended up struggling through most of graduate school. It took me 9 years to finish my PhD, and one one form of mental health absence for of about 3 months, but the rest of it just very slow progress because I just had really ongoing issues. And as I sort of got closer to the end and learned a lot more, had a really good therapist who helped me with a lot of issues.
Beth Cimini:You know, things sort of accelerated a little bit, but when I, you know, came to the Byrd 8 years ago, found myself in a situation and in a job and in a kind of work that was much better for me. And depression is still a thing I struggle with. It's gonna be a thing I struggle with my entire life. It's just how my brain works. But I was able to find a much better environment and find ways that I could help me help myself succeed by putting myself in the right place.
Peter O'Toole:Which is which is actually a bit different to what I've heard from Kedar. So similar, but the similarities differences as well between by the way, please do ask each other questions as well. I realized I could sit back here and just let you do this.
Kedar Narayan:I was actually immediately gonna ask Beth about it because you you mentioned it was this episodic, kind of You know, that's very I had a name for it. I used to call it black days. So I would I would go through 2, 3, 4 days where I would just I would find it find it really difficult to get out of bed. And, I don't know about you, but I certainly had physical symptoms. My body would hurt.
Kedar Narayan:And just walking, was an effort because it was like I was walking through classes. Mhmm. Of course, it would end, and then I would have this huge spike and feel really good. Is that something you had as well?
Beth Cimini:Yeah. I I didn't really have very many physical symptoms, although I I know other people in my life who had mental health issues, who've had that same thing where they have stress that literally manifests into them, sometimes hurting themselves because they hold their body so intensely. I think for me, it would have almost been easier to have had a more physical sim side effect and symptom because when it is a sort of totally mental, totally invisible to the outside world and it's just really about how you're feeling, especially how you're feeling about yourself, It can be so invalidating, because you're like, no. I I should be fine. There's nothing physically wrong with me.
Beth Cimini:But, of course, your brain is part of your physicality. And it's a it's a trap that I sort of continue the whole rest of my life to sort of say, like, no. It is your brain works differently than other people's, and that's okay. There are ways you can sort of try to live your life to make it so that it works the best that it can, but my brain is never gonna be like other people's. But it's hard when it's completely invisible.
Beth Cimini:I have a question
Peter O'Toole:for both of you. So, Beth, you've kind of answered it a bit of how did you first recognize it? It was your friends telling you. Mhmm. But so if I start with that, how did you what clicks to realize your friends may actually have a point?
Peter O'Toole:At what moment did you accept what they were saying? It it things weren't right.
Kedar Narayan:Yeah. How do you
Beth Cimini:recognize that? It it was it once sort of just several of them, so I was, I was really lucky in graduate school to find a a group of, 5 other women and myself foods. Did this, every other week dinner sort of group group therapy, unofficially. And within those sort of a few months, I was sort of describing what was going on with me and sort of saying and then someone I don't remember which person was first like, you know, I I think you should talk to student health and see about getting some therapy and then just sort of, you know, 4 other sets of heads nodding all at the same time. Sort of, Oh, okay.
Beth Cimini:And I think it had to be said to me a couple of times, but, again, just sort of this consistent, okay. We we love you, and we want you to be doing better. And feeling not judged that I didn't do it right away, but, you know, sort of gently encouraged that they cared about me and that was they wanted it for me was was really critical.
Peter O'Toole:What about yourself, Kedar? How how you know, what what was the moment where you realized you needed to seek help?
Kedar Narayan:Me, I, spent a lot of time, you know, just staring blankly at the computer screen, and it just my brain just wasn't working. And, I I think I as a coping mechanism, I was just very good and sociable and being around people. I don't know if too many people actually figured this out. I think a lot of people might be surprised actually if if if they hear this podcast, for example, to know that I was struggling through this in grad school and doing my postdoc. I was, I think, very good at hiding it.
Kedar Narayan:But, ultimately, it got to the point where I've realized that this really needed, you know, an intervention. Right? I I needed to do something. And so that's when I, you know, went out and and and got help. And I'm happy to talk about, you know, how I deal with it, etcetera, etcetera,
Peter O'Toole:in a bit. So what help did you both get? What where did you find the help, and what was that support like? Maybe start with Kadar then come back to Ben.
Kedar Narayan:So for me, I I went to therapy, very good. It I found this very, very useful. Right? Therapy is very useful for me. I also went to, I found out that partially, I think, because of these physical symptoms, partly partially because I recognizably got worse in the fall and the winter.
Kedar Narayan:I knew, you know, I had seasonal affective disorder and so on. So there were very specific things that I could, take care of, light therapy, taking care of my nutrients, starting to sort of exercise well, and that led me to sleep well and so on. And so those were the things that I started doing. Now the next thing I'm gonna say I will preface by saying that depression is is a is a problem of the brain, and there are pharmaceutical interventions that are appropriate for many, perhaps most people who suffer from it. And indeed, I was prescribed, SSRIs, which are very common, commonly used to to tackle this.
Kedar Narayan:But in my case, perhaps this is unique. I don't know. After my period of black days of suffering for, you know, 3, 4 days, I used to get this glorious spike at the end where my brain would just work. It was it was glorious. It would really, really work well.
Kedar Narayan:And I did not want to miss out on that. So I, continued to suffer the lows in order to experience the highs, and so I said no to to drugs and instead really, really double down on taking care of all the other stuff, which, which took a long time, but for me, ultimately, appears to have worked. And as Beth pointed out, this never really completely goes away. There's always that little something there and then you just have to be really attuned to what can trigger it to then, take a step back and take preventative actions.
Peter O'Toole:I've I've I've got to just follow-up on that. Just ask. You you had those lows, and and, hopefully, you're now not getting so low and missing those lows. Are you still getting those buzz days?
Kedar Narayan:I do get buzz days. Yep. I do. And it's, perhaps the amplitude doesn't feel as dramatic because of they aren't preceded by by these. But fortunately, I I do get the occasional, days.
Kedar Narayan:Perhaps they're less frequent because I'm getting older. I don't know. But, but but I do know that, one trigger, for example, you know, I I mentioned these micronutrient issues and the light issues. But if I get extremely fatigued, I now know mentally or physically, I know that that gets my brain going down a certain path, and I know what's at the end of the path. So I know to just immediately take a time out, and and take care of myself.
Peter O'Toole:And what about yourself, Beth? What sort of help did you collect, and where did you find it?
Beth Cimini:Yeah. Because I was in graduate school when my problem started, I was lucky that UCSF had a pretty decent student health system, since it's a a medical school, that I could go and see people. And it it definitely took a while to find somebody who was the right therapist for me. And I was trying to it took me a long time to sort of acknowledge not just, okay, I'm a person who needs help, but, okay, I'm a person who needs a lot of help. And so it took sort of even longer until I saw somebody, sort of more frequently.
Beth Cimini:And I really needed for me, seeing somebody an hour a week every week for a couple of years, in order to sort of really get through, a lot of the sort of worst parts of my depression. And I've gone back and forth, since graduating and since, moving to Boston. I've had periods of time where I didn't go to therapy, but then, you know, I've gotten good at sort of noticing, like, Kayla was saying, like, when I'm on a path to not doing well and sort of, getting myself back into therapy. I'm incredibly lucky that, I found a great therapist about a year and a half ago, when I was having a difficult time who I've been continuing to see because it's just a really good match. I did get prescribed.
Beth Cimini:I didn't end up doing SSRs. I ended up doing Wellbutrin, which is a slightly different pharmaceutical, and I've been on that, almost continuously since my early twenties. I've tried going off of it a couple of times and, it I can function without it, but everything is just harder. And it feels like my stability is less. I'm not like it takes less to sort of push me to a point where, I feel like I can't cope anymore.
Beth Cimini:And I just noticed that, again, every little stressor just made me feel worse. And so I I made the decision to go back on it. And for I realized for a long time, the not wanting to be on it for me was about not wanting to be a person with depression anymore. Like, oh, well, if I don't need the medicine anymore, it must mean I don't have this anymore, and therefore I must be fine. But it's this is just a thing that helps me be the best version of myself.
Beth Cimini:And so for me, medication has been the right thing. But, absolutely, it's about what works for everybody's body and life.
Peter O'Toole:It's striking just how similar and how dissimilar
Beth Cimini:Mhmm.
Peter O'Toole:Both your cases are. It it it I'm so glad I've got both of you at the same time
Beth Cimini:talking about
Peter O'Toole:the differences. Hopefully, people will find themselves somewhere between or other extremes, as they're listening through. So certainly in your case, Beth, your friends knew I I presume you told your friends you were going to see a therapist. Mhmm. How did so firstly, how did your friends react to that?
Beth Cimini:My friends were like, yes. Good job. We told you to go. And I I've tried to, you know again, it was hard at first and it was weird telling my family, just because again, it was like, oh, what I didn't feel like I could justify that there was enough wrong going on, and it took a long time again to just sort of get to the point where I was like, no. Like, a, I was under a lot of stresses, a lot of sort of stresses that would make anybody feel bad, but that I have a brain issue that you know?
Beth Cimini:But, again, I I had a lot of time feeling guilty for feeling depression. And part of that is, like, that is part of why I try to I've tried to sort of since getting over that really normalized talking about it. So I've talked about it on Twitter. It's something that, you know, relatively early in my relationship with my husband, you know, sort of like, yeah. I take antidepressants.
Beth Cimini:Like, I'm a person with depression. And, you know, I would tell my lab some days. I'm like, sorry. I'm just having a a day where I can't brain good. I'm sorry.
Beth Cimini:Like, I'm gonna sort of step away early or I'm gonna, you know, just sort of focus on, you know, doing doing something that is not really necessary, but will make me feel good, and trying to make it so that it is more normalized and it doesn't have to be a giant thing. It's just a part of who I am.
Peter O'Toole:I I can see okay. Dar was nodding through a lot of that. And I just bet there's one more part of that. You how how did your parents react to it? They must have been really worried.
Beth Cimini:I think I downplayed it to them a lot. It was just sort of like, oh, yeah. No. And I'm I'm going to therapy now. My dad was always a big fan of, like, no.
Beth Cimini:We we pretend all bad things aren't happening. So, and my mom has has been supportive and sort of tries to understand the best she can. You know, it definitely I think sometimes again, she doesn't quite understand why certain things are upsetting for me or that, you know, she just doesn't always get she's like, oh, well, that you don't have to be upset about that. I'm like, okay. But I am.
Beth Cimini:Again, she's wonderful and loving, but, yeah, my mom has always been very supportive. My dad has always was always just sort of like, we're we're gonna pretend bad things don't happen.
Peter O'Toole:Well, that's a good defense mechanism in itself. That's a
Beth Cimini:that's a
Peter O'Toole:defense mechanism. Kaydar, you were nodding through that. So did your friends know about, when you reached out for help? Were your friends aware, or did you
Kedar Narayan:were they in the dark? No. I I don't think, I really shared very much with with friends, about this thing. And and to Beth's point, I it it just resonated so much with me because there is this feeling of guilt that that comes over here, like, you know, but, it's a very it's a very, you know, your brain does really funny things when you're depressed. And there's this, awful sort of cycle where you go through this woe is me kind of thing and then you you then feel guilty about feeling guilty and then of course that keeps building on itself.
Kedar Narayan:It's a terrible thing to go through. It's completely pointless. But that's what your brain does. But but no. I for this one, primarily, I think I just wanted to sort things out, and I tend to look at things very logically.
Kedar Narayan:There are problems that needed to be attacked and sorted out one after the other. And I was very careful and observant in in figuring out what made me feel better or what made me feel worse. And when it comes to our family, the, you know, perhaps I'm overgeneralizing. I don't know. But certainly for Indian families, I think depression is still a bit of a foreign concept.
Kedar Narayan:I think it's becoming a lot better now, but it I think the instant, reaction is, it's one of those American things. Yeah. And and so you can't be depressed. You're Indian. I mean, you know, so I think there are these cultural, aspects of this that can make it a little more challenging to come out to your parents or your family and just tell them look this is you know this is a serious problem.
Kedar Narayan:It's not just that I'm going through that that science is challenging, which it is anyway, but this is something beyond that. And I think that sometimes cultural norms and other norms can make it a little more challenging to do, but it's still worth doing it.
Peter O'Toole:Did did either of you feel as though this could be detrimental to your career if people were aware? If your peers, your colleagues, and and senior staff, if they were aware that you're having these problems, did you ever one worry that that could be detrimental to your career? I was thinking, go with Kedar then come to bear. That KDAIL said, I've not thought about that.
Kedar Narayan:I did not think of it in that way. But, certainly, I've also not been particularly open about this either. So it's the kind of thing that I felt it was it was a problem that I need to needed to sort out. So I don't think it it ever got to the point where I had to worry that, you know, somebody would find out and and and that I might my career might be in jeopardy.
Peter O'Toole:Do do your peers now know?
Kedar Narayan:No. Not many of my peers know. No. I'm
Beth Cimini:They're gonna watch the podcasting.
Kedar Narayan:The whole world's gonna know now. Yeah. Well, I
Peter O'Toole:said, do you think it would affect your career? Or did were you worried? He's like, oh, no. I never thought about that. Oh, no.
Kedar Narayan:I don't wanna tell you. I was thinking about this in real time. Maybe I shouldn't be doing this. No. I think I I I think the, one of one of the things is when you get past this, all these negative thoughts of of guilt and lack of self worth and and and feeling bad about being feeling about feeling bad, then it really is like, well, I injured my lower back, doing crew at Cambridge.
Kedar Narayan:Right? Why do I feel guilty about that? It's a similar kind of thing. It's a part of my body that wasn't working particularly well, and now I have ways by which I can control it so that I can function properly. So that's how I think of it, and that really helps destigmatize the whole thing, at least it did for me.
Peter O'Toole:Beth, I'll just ask. I've gotta ask one thing. She mentioned accruing and doing your back. And do you think your mental health state actually was actually possibly one of the causes for the back?
Kedar Narayan:For me? Yeah. Oh, no. This was back when I was an undergrad, and I was happy. The the the the lower back injury from crew was entirely because I am weak.
Kedar Narayan:I have bad form.
Peter O'Toole:A bad the similar question. Were you ever worried about how that would have how it might affect your career?
Beth Cimini:I think there have been periods where that was a concern. I mean, again, in graduate school, I had to take a mental health leave. And, again, that was also a situation where I've my boss came to me and was like, I you're gonna take this order off. Like, you're not you're not doing okay. You need to go spend some time, like, working on this stuff.
Beth Cimini:And, again, I I'm very grateful to her that she did that because I was just gonna try and sort of, muscle through. Oh. So, again, in graduate school, like, everybody around me knew this was a problem. And, again, I just stopped showing up for days at a time. There wasn't you know, it's clearly something going on.
Beth Cimini:I don't know to what degree my references told, my current boss, Anne Carpenter, that when I sort of started in her group, but I was I remember being upfront with her about it relatively quickly. Like, hi. This is the thing that that might happen that I might sort of have to deal with, that sometimes I get these depressive episodes, though I have had way fewer of them since being in her group. And for me, now that I'm sort of more like, I was in that one same group from postdoc all the way now through being a PI. And so in that sense now that I'm a, you know, semi established PI, it's like, well, people are gonna judge me on my merits, but, certainly, I would never have felt confident sort of trying to go for an academic job or something like that straight out of, you know, graduate school or a shorter post op because I would have worried that, you know, there's this big hole in my resume of, you know, times when I weren't wasn't scientifically productive.
Beth Cimini:But I think probably the person who thought that this would affect my career most was me, and I I resisted the idea for a long time of wanting to be a PI because I didn't trust myself that I would be able to get through it or that I wouldn't put myself in a situation where the people in my lab were relying on me and I would let them down, because I wouldn't be mentally healthy enough to help them. And, you know, knock on wood, so far, 3 years into my lab, that hasn't happened yet. And I now have a really good team where I I know I can go to them and I can say, you know, I I need some extra help with this. I'm not doing great right now. But, it was a job I resisted for a long time because I wasn't sure I
Kedar Narayan:could handle it.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. Before moving on to the next bit, you did take those times out of work where you were missing I think you said it was 3 months, was it, at one point? Do you
Beth Cimini:Yeah. How
Peter O'Toole:did you find going back after that 3 months? Were were sort of virtual walls building up between yourself and the workplace, or was it quite natural to go back in? How did that feel?
Beth Cimini:I was very lucky in the, my boss had already scheduled for me to go visit a collaborator, like, starting the beginning of the following quarter anyway. So it was basically, well, why don't you, you know, just take a few months off and then go on this trip and then come back? And so I could thankfully come back not from, oh, well, now you've been out being a crazy person for 3 months. It's like, oh, you were up being crazy for 3 months. And then you went and, like, went to, visit a collaborator.
Beth Cimini:So I was coming back off of a success rather than that. I think it probably would have been harder again despite the fact that the people in my lab were lovely and supportive. But I I was still dealing with a lot of sort of shame and guilt again around the fact that I was doing so poorly.
Peter O'Toole:And and that shame and guilt surely must have been a a a cycle, which only makes it worse. That yeah.
Beth Cimini:I know
Peter O'Toole:you're you're nodding as well.
Kedar Narayan:Yeah. I mean and the the mistake I made in, you know, complete contrast to Beth is I tried to power through,
Beth Cimini:which in retrospect tried. I just then failed.
Kedar Narayan:I I probably I probably should have taken some time out, but I tend to be unnecessarily competitive. And, it just is inimical to taking some time off. And, and, again, somehow, I convinced myself that, doing doing that, taking time off, taking care of myself was somehow a sign of weakness and that I I have, you know, lost, right? I've lost against this foe. So it was a very odd kind of things that were going.
Kedar Narayan:So that was the one, I suppose, mistake that I made was to try to bow through, and that really I can't I don't wanna generalize to everybody, but I can certainly say that it for me, it was perhaps not the wisest way to to move forward.
Peter O'Toole:That's interesting. So one thing I I I'll skip a question. I I was gonna ask. If you could change anything looking back retrospectively, what's one thing you would change? So, is that the one thing you'd change, or there are other things you'd change as well?
Kedar Narayan:Yes. Number 1, I think I should have taken the time out. And number 2, I should have learned how to articulate needing help. And I I think this for me, again, this was part of this, sales image having to break down and be remade again. For me, that that really was was, it it took a lot of work.
Kedar Narayan:And to to, not look at that as a defeat is difficult, because I I think that that's what prevented me from just asking for help in a in a way that was a lot more, that could have been a lot more hopeful and open and and beneficial. I didn't do that.
Peter O'Toole:So that's a lot of, you know, looking back in retrospect. Do you regret not doing that at the time, or, actually, do you now look back and go, well, I would change it now in retrospect, but, actually, I don't regret doing what I did because I I wouldn't be wiser. And you may regret it taking time off if you're taking time off. I don't know.
Kedar Narayan:Right. I mean, I I'm not sure I well, this is a difficult question. Right? Because we only have one life path, and things turned out, the way they did, which, yes, they required a lot of hard work and resilience and patience and luck. I don't know if this is true for you, Beth, but I found that that for me, a couple of these things had to click together to start, you know, for me to start believing myself, for me to start being okay with myself, a lot of these little things.
Kedar Narayan:Because one of the, one of the things that the depressed brain does, which is so annoying, is that it magnifies failures and, and and, depresses wins. Right? It it's it's really annoying. And so when you have wins or successes, you're like, ah, that was no big deal or you forget about it. But when you have a minor setback, somehow that's magnified.
Kedar Narayan:And so I think, yeah, that's, that's I was getting over that a little bit of a problem, but but no regrets. So I just to get back to your question. Yeah. It it turned out okay. Couple of lucky breaks, and I think that helped.
Peter O'Toole:Beth, you were nodding through that.
Beth Cimini:Yeah. No. The the what really resonated a lot of what what you said was, about the, just, like, how would you have done it differently? Like, maybe you wouldn't have come back as high sort of if you hadn't gone through the the part of having to sort of remake yourself. Because when he was asking this question, I was thinking, what the only things that I that I sort of immediately like, well, I would been less ashamed and less but that's that's the illness.
Beth Cimini:That's, you know, that's a part of what it is. And so, again, sort of avoiding having triggered being in such a sort of relatively unsupported place in the first place. But, again, if I had never gone through that experience, I wouldn't be the person that I am now. And so I don't they're not the funniest years of my life to look back on, but I certainly learned a lot about myself and eventually having to come to terms and dealing with, you know, problems that had been there for me since childhood but never dealt with until I got to graduate school. You know, just sort of shoving more years on top of them, I don't think would have helped me in the long run.
Peter O'Toole:I think if if we look at the way where where you both are today, you're both at the top of your fields. Okay? You're both rising stars, but at the top of your field. So, you know, I've other We've got some that are rising up fast. Actually, you're both stellar names in your areas.
Peter O'Toole:You're
Beth Cimini:Mhmm.
Peter O'Toole:But also rising stars. And as you say, it's maybe that's part of what's made you who you are today as well, from that learning cycle. So maybe it's also had some I'd I'd like to think it has some positives. How would you say and, actually, this is, Credo, this is something you've we're we're actually posing as a question yourself is how would you say how would you say you are different today? What is the diff how are you different as a person today than before?
Kedar Narayan:How am I different today? Well, I think this thing, you know, Beth and I look like we're echoing so many of our own thoughts, but, resilience. Right? I mean, this this this whole episode really taught me a a good deal about myself, and I I do think that I've become, a lot more resilient on account of this whole thing. For me, there's another big difference.
Kedar Narayan:I was I was I still am competitive. I think I don't think that'll ever go away, But I was competitive in what I now realize was a very outwardly facing and toxic kind of competitiveness. And, when this whole thing happened, I realized that those were a lot of my triggers, this kind of unnecessary comparative thing, which doesn't work anyway in science. Right? You you don't want to end up in a place where you you everyday look at someone's, you know, PubMed stat sheet or whatever it says and try to see and try to use that as a gauge of how how successful you are or how good you are as as a person.
Kedar Narayan:So I think, the biggest change in that sense has been to let go of all of that, and really look upon just, my work, as how it sort of makes me feel good, right, and and how I can contribute. And that has helped me appreciate other people's successes, and that I cannot tell you how much of a weight off of your shoulders that is when people do well, and your brain suddenly stops thinking of it as a threat, and then you actually enjoy their success. My god. That is such a welcome change. It's, it really is.
Kedar Narayan:And I I'm a 100% sure that I would not have been able to do it if I was in that brain space previously.
Beth Cimini:That's lovely. That's a really lovely sentiment.
Peter O'Toole:And, Beth, what about yourself? Do you think you're different now to how you were before?
Beth Cimini:In some ways, yes. And in some ways, no. To to cater to my resilience, like, there have been certainly bad things that have happened in my life sort of since, since my worst episodes of depression, but you sort of end up getting the sort of like, well, I've gotten through worse. Like, I've survived a lot. And so, you know, if a grant doesn't come in or, you know, I have a fight with it, like, kind of the worst.
Beth Cimini:Like, sort of you have this sort of okay. Well, this isn't the worst thing that's ever happened to me. But for me, again, a lot of the things that were triggers for me in graduate school, are still triggers for me. And so for me, it was less about, that I have changed because in a lot of ways, I haven't, but just sort of about building myself a very different kind of life, a life where I can be more successful and where, you know, I'm not as triggered. And for me, a lot of it was about feeling like what I was doing didn't matter.
Beth Cimini:Or and, you know, getting the whole thing in your PhD is you are becoming the one world expert on a thing that you are the only person in the world who cares the most about. And it turns out that was terrible for me. Like, that was a terrible thing for my mental health because, again, nobody else in the world cared about this in the way that I did. And so it felt I felt very alone. And so instead of doing that kind of science, but being in a place where I'm making tools that help other people, I immediately know that other people, like, care about what I'm doing and that what I'm doing not only, like, is important to other people, but makes them happier.
Beth Cimini:And that for me is so rewarding and so fulfilling. And I think even with the better mental health that I have now, if I had stayed in a more traditional research career, I think I still would have been pretty unhappy because, again, that sort of focusing narrowly on a research question is bad for my mental health. But building things that help other people is phenomenal for my mental health. And so, I'm incredibly lucky that that's what I get to do every day.
Peter O'Toole:So I I think you both already said that you you're very self analytical now, and you you'd be aware you'd recognize symptoms, I think, if they were coming again. You both think you both say you recognize when it's coming, gone, and changing. Mhmm. And you're worried that it could go into your your bad brain or your not a good brain day, was it, Beth? Or that your black days would stay black.
Peter O'Toole:Are you worried that it could get worse again? That's it. I'm not keep on nodding.
Beth Cimini:Yeah. I worry. Does it make like, there will be times where my mental health will be worse than it is now. I'm I'm certain of it. You know, bad things will happen in my life, and it will, it will be hard.
Beth Cimini:And figuring out I I think one thing I don't know if this you had this experience together, but as a person with depression, figuring out how to have, like, normal stress and normal sadness. Like, because you spend so long trying to get better and trying to not be sad all the time. And then how do you deal with just regular sadness? Because regular people aren't happy all the time. Regular people are stressed sometimes and sad sometimes, and figuring out how to do that.
Beth Cimini:I think as long as I stay in therapy and stay on my medication or some combination of those two things, I hope it will never be as bad as the worst times. But at this point, I know this is sort of a thing that is gonna cycle through my entire life and, hopefully, in a much more dampened way than before.
Kedar Narayan:Yeah. I I will echo that as well. It doesn't it doesn't ever go away completely. And so you just have to be proactive and and and check the warning signs and, and then deal with it. But I I would be lying if I said that, you know, I'm home and clear because I'm, life will go on and there will be ups and downs and those downs, you just have to hope that it you don't sort of tumble down a path that and ends up with you in a in a really bad place.
Kedar Narayan:But, you know, one thing that Beth just said that just struck me. I didn't realize about this thing up until just now is that, you know, CellProfiler and Empanada are really, like, 2 sort of sides of the same coin. Right? And I remember the joy that I got from, folks that I didn't know at all asking me about empanada or even complaining that a certain module didn't work right or whatever it is, giving me so much, joy compared to when the paper came out. Right?
Kedar Narayan:And and, it's a pity that our traditional metrics of evaluation and self worth tend to be very different from what it looks like makes you and me happy. Right? It's it's it's it's ultimately way more rewarding for you.
Beth Cimini:Should be best, Trevor, what makes you and me happy, obviously. Yeah. That's right.
Peter O'Toole:I, in a moment, I'm gonna call in another guest in a moment. But just before we do, have you ever blamed any one element of your life for becoming depressed? Have you ever is it is it one thing? Is it being work? Was it sending personal?
Peter O'Toole:You know, have you ever gone off that and there you know, have you ever blamed it on anything? Or any point have you blamed it on anything?
Kedar Narayan:I'm
Peter O'Toole:looking at 2 blank faces.
Beth Cimini:Yeah. Beth, do you
Kedar Narayan:wanna go first? Or
Beth Cimini:I mean, again, like, part of mine came from some not great experiences I had growing up. And but, again, like, I I I don't think there's ever any one thing if, you know, if I was didn't respond to certain stresses the way I did and sort of you know? And if my brain neurotransmitters weren't the way my brain neurotransmitters are, you know, it's always hard getting getting yourself to the point of sort of dealing with the bad things that have happened in your past, but I I don't I don't think there's any one cause for me anyway. And it's never really been about that. It's just been about, again, like, who who am I?
Beth Cimini:How much am I my disease? How much is my disease part of who I am? How do these things intersect? And that's gonna be something I think I'll be figuring out for a very long time.
Peter O'Toole:And maybe changing over time as well. Mhmm. Kedar.
Kedar Narayan:Yeah. Yes. I did have these factors. Right? These external factors.
Kedar Narayan:But, ultimately, it's it's very clear that those are just external factors that you don't control, and it's the way that your brain reacts to them that really is the bottom line in terms of how this devolved. So, I did spend a lot of time being angry and frustrated at all of these things. And then, eventually, you figure out that these these things will happen. These things you can't control, and this is where you are. And there are certain things that you do can do that can control that that you can control that do help.
Kedar Narayan:But, you know, very rarely do you have situations where it's it's, you know, where you don't have any external triggers at all. Usually, there's something, right, that sets you off going down a particular path. So Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:And It's
Kedar Narayan:just different people.
Peter O'Toole:How about your workload? Have you dropped the workload? I I I I I certainly, I know Beth firsthand. I don't think you've dampened down your workload when you're traveling or anything else. You are insane with the effort you put in.
Beth Cimini:So I'm Trying to stop.
Peter O'Toole:And and neither you ever say no. And, actually, you know, which then you so you're both positive, but so you haven't had to modify that part of your work. I know some people who've had health problems in the past, they've had to say no more often because, actually, it was just the amount you're traveling or something else actually just took its toll
Kedar Narayan:on them. For me, yes. So I'm part of this whole thing of rejiggering, your your self worth and how you measure yourself, and think of yourself. I think part of it is when when those parameters change, suddenly, for me at least, I realized that, a lot of these boxes that I could have checked actually well, they don't really make me happy. And, and, and therefore, maybe I don't wanna do them.
Kedar Narayan:But I don't want to, in any way, minimize the amount of luck and good fortune that I'm experiencing, that allows me to do that because there are a lot of people who are not in the position where they can uncheck these trigger boxes, right, for for whatever their work situation or life situation may be. But because I happen to be in this situation to the extent I can, I I can avoid these triggers or these stresses? And I do.
Peter O'Toole:That's a good, intro, actually. So, actually, for those listening or watching, in the background of all these recordings, for most of these recordings is Jason. And Jason is works for Bite Size Bio. He does a lot of the editing. And, actually, when setting this up and talking to Jason about actually, my I I'm not completely comfortable.
Peter O'Toole:It's quite it's a bit nerve wracking asking you these, what I think, quite personal difficult questions. So I was talking to Jason, and then Jason actually said, well, actually, Pete, I've been there myself. So, Jason, could you join us, please? Hello, Jason Rogers from Bite Size Bio.
Jason Rodgers:Hi there. How are we doing?
Peter O'Toole:Good. Thank you. So I it'd be really good to hear how you've you've been listening in the background. Mhmm. So, you're not a scientist.
Peter O'Toole:So to, Jason, first of all, for the guests that are listening, what's your role? What are you doing academically? What are you doing in Bite Size Bio?
Jason Rodgers:So, I'm Jason. And in Bitesize Bio, I'm one of the producers. Mainly, I look after the podcasts. I help out with webinars as well and, just any other projects really that that we do, in the company. And in an academic sense, my whole background's audio engineering.
Jason Rodgers:That's my whole thing. And I've not long graduated with a master's in audio forensics, and I'm still working towards a PhD in that as well.
Peter O'Toole:And just being invited to give your first talk. You had your first paper accepted and going to give a talk at a conference, Jason?
Jason Rodgers:Yes. Yeah. That was some really good news. Yesterday, I got, formally told thank you. I got formally told yesterday that I'm getting my paper published in a conference next month.
Jason Rodgers:So It's so different.
Kedar Narayan:Achievements. So, Jason,
Peter O'Toole:you you you've heard this. And, actually, there must be some striking similarities considering at the age that Beth and Keydars starts to executives start to feel depression and stuff. So have you felt listening to that? And, you know, where are your synergies and differences with it?
Jason Rodgers:So there's think you said earlier on, there's a lot of, points that are similar, but there's also a lot of points that are very dissimilar at the same time. So, for instance, I I I took down some notes here. So, Beth, earlier on, you talked about not being able to get out of bed. And I think, Kedar, you called them black days, I think you said. I completely understand that.
Jason Rodgers:I was days that, I've struggled just to get out of the bed. We actually have a daily call. My team at Bite Size Bio, we jump on about 10 o'clock in the morning every day just for 20 minutes to talk about the work we've got to do and make sure we're not overloaded or anything. I've been very guilty of taking that call in bed, without the webcam on because that was just that's as much as I can manage. I've I've told people that, so I'm not bothering that.
Jason Rodgers:And, it spoke as well about struggling to speak up. And, I it's something that I I don't think I found it as hard as other people, but there's certainly, a big stigma everywhere about people having mental health and speaking up about it. People thinking that it's, it's not a real thing or it's not got as much of a, impact as something physical. And it's in in my eyes, anyway, because I know everybody's different. But in my eyes, the mental health is no different to something physical.
Jason Rodgers:So in the same way, you would go see the doctor because you have, you know, a cold or infection or something. We'd go see the doctor to see about your mental health. Obviously, everybody else feels different about it. But, personally, that's my view. And I think that actually helped helped me find it a bit easier to speak up about it.
Jason Rodgers:But I didn't speak to somebody in person. I've found it easier speaking to strangers rather than anything else. Not sure why, but I think probably something to do with my, struggle seems to be a a bit of personal, mixed in with a bit of lifestyle, mixed in with some historical stuff as well. So I wonder if it's something to do with the personal element being there, that people who don't know anything about it is easier to speak to them about.
Peter O'Toole:It's interesting how you said, Jason, that, you know, the stigma that's associated with it. And yet as you listen to Kaydar and Beth, I didn't feel as though they thought there was such a big stigma about it. You know, Beth, your friends are recommending going to see it, Kate. You recognized it and dealt with it. You dealt with it in confidence.
Peter O'Toole:But neither we really mentioned that there might be a stigma associated with it. People might think less of you or think you're just just Beth, you mentioned your father and how he goes everything's fine. But but, listen, obviously, you mentioned the word stigma in this. So were you worried that your friends would think less of you because of this?
Jason Rodgers:Not by friends per se. One one of my close friends, his fiancee, is a mental health nurse. So and my little friend, Greg, we've we're kind of accepting about it. And I have told them, I'm struggling and talked about with them. But as I've seen over social media over the years, one of the reasons I'm not on it anymore, people don't think anything about it.
Jason Rodgers:I've heard comments, in the past of people talking about other people with, mental health issues and saying that kinda downplaying them, kinda making it seem like, oh, they're just putting it on. They're putting on a show that they've got depression or something, whereas it's really not the case. But I think just having heard all that stuff, in the past kinda made me think about it a little bit when it came to me experiencing it. I
Beth Cimini:think that stigma is is is absolutely real. And, again, that's like, I think I sort of alluded to before. Part of why I try to now be really open about it is, again, I felt really guilty and ashamed. And, again, is this real? Is this and I want to try and make it easier for someone who comes after me to be like, oh, yeah.
Beth Cimini:No. This is a thing. It's real, and it doesn't have to be, again, the end of the end of your career, the end of your happiness, the end of your whatever. Just but there's definitely a lot of people who have very outdated ideas or or who think that depression is just something where you're sad all the time and there's no that you can't be a person with depression, but also, you know, shows up to work smiling.
Kedar Narayan:Yeah. Yep.
Jason Rodgers:Sorry. I'm gonna go, Gator. I thought you were about to say something.
Kedar Narayan:Oh, no. I I was just okay. So No. But but there was also you mentioned social media, and, I I just had to double click on that because of how much of an impact, I've certainly for me, it was very deleterious. Because all you see on Twitter or whatever it is is is the best of people right and often the worst of people.
Kedar Narayan:And this was one of the triggers for me as it's one of the triggers that I think I failed to mention in in you know in this podcast, but it certainly was and I had to be very careful about how I did. In fact, I've I've disengaged for the most part, from Twitter even though I know it's at the expense of getting the word out with some of the work work of our lab, but it is I just made the call that it's just not worth it.
Jason Rodgers:This certainly, I got a lot of stuff from Facebook before and, but when I decided to come off it completely, I went, no. I'm not on it at all. The only one I do know is LinkedIn. But the, I have noticed that because you mentioned there about struggling to get word out for the lab and things there. I used to get a lot of news, from social media.
Jason Rodgers:It seemed latest from the BBC or Sky News or whatever. I felt a bit disconnected from the world that way. So I now have to pay for a news app, of my own choice anyway, to get all the latest news and things. It's, actually then became slightly worrying to me about how much that's integrated into our lives now as well.
Peter O'Toole:Jason, I'll give you some top tips on that afterwards.
Kedar Narayan:You might not have
Peter O'Toole:to pay for it then. Bed into it. So that that stigma, I think, was an important one to address, and and going through it. Were you worried about your colleagues? Your your peers and your colleagues and your your bosses at work?
Jason Rodgers:No. Not at all. Actually, Bite Size Bio has been very, very good, supporting me for it. As soon as I I was actually physically sick when I went off with my, mental health as well, which partly caused the mental health downspyral. But after I got physically better, I was still off with the mental health.
Jason Rodgers:And they kept constantly checking in, how are you doing? We're here if we need anything. They helped me, when I was, you know, not able to work. They even came through, to see me, to make sure I was okay. So I live about an hour's drive from the office.
Jason Rodgers:They came through my way, took me for coffee, had a little morning just to check-in, see if I was okay. And even now, every other day, they're just checking, going, still okay? It's less and less now. But, you know, they're they're there and they are wary of it, but they're they're not making a a thing of it. And because Bite Size Bio I don't know.
Jason Rodgers:Listeners probably won't know this, but Bite Size Bio works completely remote. We have an office, but there's only maybe about 5 of us that use it. The other 10 or so people in the company all work all over the place. We all work from home mainly. So twice a year, we have in person gatherings.
Jason Rodgers:And we had one a few weeks ago where we had a little topic in it about well-being at work. And, I decided to speak up at that, tell the rest of the company about me struggling with it, mental health and whatnot. But I did it more to try and make sure that everybody else is knows that you can do it, try and make everybody else feel a bit more comfortable that, you know, I'm struggling with this. So if you're struggling with something similar and yourself there, you're not the only one. Please do speak up, and there is help here for you.
Peter O'Toole:I I wonder how much the older generation so I I was interested in Beth's father as an example saying, oh, no. No. No. It was, you know, crack on. And I think you do hear people say that this is a this is this is like a epidemic of the youth because they're hearing about it, so they're just jumping onto the track.
Peter O'Toole:And actually, Kaydar Beth, I know you're not old. You've always said anything else. But I think
Beth Cimini:I don't know I'm old, but thank you for saying that.
Peter O'Toole:I can't go wrong if I go that direction. That's for sure.
Kedar Narayan:That's right. That's right.
Peter O'Toole:I'm learning. I'm learning. But I think the critical thing is, you know, be it's it's big news now. You know, the last 5 years or so, I'd say, it's been a big drive, but both of you have been through this before that 5 years, and it shows that it was there. I think actually it's because of hearing stories.
Peter O'Toole:And hopefully this as well helps people recognize and and address the problem. You know? Hopefully, we're getting far fewer, very serious problems because people can identify with what you've what we've heard from all 3 of you and actually recognize that maybe themselves or maybe recognizing a friend or a colleague or appear at work and and, you know, hopefully offer that help or find that help and reach out. And then it will it it we will have more people identifying with mental health problems. Mhmm.
Peter O'Toole:Because they won't be hiding it, because they will be able to come out and they won't, Kaydar, you know, fight their way through it
Beth Cimini:Mhmm.
Peter O'Toole:By themselves. You know?
Kedar Narayan:Hey, do
Peter O'Toole:I I how prevalent was it for you when you were there knowing of other people and that have shared that experience at the time?
Kedar Narayan:If there were other well, when I went through this, there just wasn't that much talk about it. Right? I mean, this isn't ages ages ago. We're talking about relatively recently, And and it's still about yeah. That's right.
Kedar Narayan:Just a few years ago. But, yeah, it did feel a little bit like this was something that was unusual. And part of it was, again, this mental construct that I had that was, you know, if you think you're infallible and you realize you're not, it's there's a big there's a comedown, right? And you have to get used to it. But one of the things that as we talk about this, I don't know what how to how to deal with this, which is, if someone's going through this, you know, feeling really low and then, you know, they they might be depressed.
Kedar Narayan:They're not a 100% sure. And science as we know it is nothing if not a series of, you know, sort of, metaphorical, hammer blows on the head and ego. Right? I mean, failure is intrinsic to science. And so, I wonder if there's a way to accurately assign setbacks as just or sadness or disappointments in one box and then sort of recognize that as being different.
Kedar Narayan:Because the fact is that in science, you do have to plow on, right, in the face of difficulties and setbacks and failed experiments. So I don't know, in some ways we have to we're really demanding a lot of everyone to be nuanced enough to know when to push on and when to be when to persevere and when to know. No. No. This is not about science.
Kedar Narayan:It's about a problem that I have to take care and maybe step back a bit. I don't know how I don't know how how to do that or how people can do that.
Peter O'Toole:It it yeah. I think that's gonna be different for everyone again. And, actually, I I have one quick question. We are coming up to the hour. I I do have a quick question, actually.
Peter O'Toole:When you get a grant rejected or a manuscript rejected, how long do you how long do you suffer that, if that makes sense? Could you especially at Grant, you it's your heart sinks. Yeah. Because you provision that someone's rejected everything else. You know, how long and I I'm not even gonna ask you, do you feel sad?
Peter O'Toole:Because everyone has to feel pretty disappointed when they hear that. But how how long does that live with you before you flip off the other side and into battle again? Beth, what about you?
Beth Cimini:I I definitely have been guilty of asking the person who runs one of my sub teams to be like, I can't really read these reviews. Can you just read them and sort of tell me what they said? And, because for me, that's it's not gonna be easy to read those. But, again, I I think it's a thing that everybody struggles with. And the fact fact that funding rates are so terrible at this point, you can sort of comfort yourself with the idea of, oh, well, you know, it it every like, this still could have been good and just you know, it's a crapshoot once you get down to a sort of single digit, per funding percents.
Kedar Narayan:Kato? Well, I'm at the NIH and and the National Labs, so we don't write grants. But, we are having a very difficult funding cycle. And, strangely, this time, even though it was very stressful, it was it has been and continues to be a very stressful time. I find myself not slipping into this, into a bad place.
Kedar Narayan:So somehow, I think just with time, my semi seemed to have figured out how to calibrate stresses and disappointments and not tumbling down that depressive path. I think
Peter O'Toole:maybe a top tip for anyone, listening, is make sure that if you are critical of a grant or a manuscript, it's constructive. Beth is a good example of how to be a constructive referee. I know that. She didn't reject her manuscript twice over, but just was constructively critical of it. It made it so much better for it, but we were actually very receptive to it.
Peter O'Toole:We didn't know it was best at the time, but we were very receptive.
Kedar Narayan:But now the world knows.
Peter O'Toole:Oh, no. The world knew anyway. Beth Beth actually signed her name on it at the end.
Kedar Narayan:I do too on my reviews. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:No. So so it was not at the time, but afterwards, it all came out. Beth's name was there. So it's so which was which I think was really good. And I think that's yeah.
Peter O'Toole:I I when I sit on grant panels and review grants, I think you should never say anything you would not say to someone's face.
Beth Cimini:Mhmm.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. You know? And just be consist don't be super critical. But but, you know, you need to be able to stand up. And I think I have approached people in the past and spoke to them about different bits.
Peter O'Toole:And so, Jason, when you get your next manuscript, if it gets rejected, don't be gutted by it. It happens. Wake up the next morning and work out how you're gonna make it better going forward on that.
Jason Rodgers:I I I can, I think, kinda comment on that? Because when I I said earlier I'm doing, working towards a PhD, I actually applied this is the second kind of round of applying for it. So the first time I did get rejected, and that really did get me down. Because I I I was planning to do it while working full time. Well, living in Scotland, but at a university in England as well.
Jason Rodgers:So all these bad things there. And I'd went I'd flipped back and forth for so long going, will will I apply? Will I do it? Spoke to my partner about it and everything. Because it was gonna be such a huge impact.
Jason Rodgers:And I got talked into applying for it. Applied for it. Got myself so excited and so worked up for it. And then wasn't successful. And, that did get me out in a slump.
Jason Rodgers:And that was before my whole mental health thing started as well. So yeah. It's not I don't know if it's quite the same as the grant proposals or that, but I it's my way that I can relate to it, I think.
Kedar Narayan:Rejection of any sort is pretty difficult, for anybody. Right? I mean, it's
Beth Cimini:yeah. Doesn't feel good for anybody.
Jason Rodgers:No. Doesn't do enough.
Beth Cimini:Yeah. If we have
Peter O'Toole:competitive.
Jason Rodgers:Sorry?
Peter O'Toole:We are we are competitive.
Jason Rodgers:Yeah.
Beth Cimini:Yes. Mhmm. I wanna if we have a a minute, just sort of return back to a couple of the things that you were saying before about, sort of stigma and sort of people finding each other. One thing I I think is a little possibly different about my story than than Jason and Gerard is, I think women are more used to talking about this with each other. And I know, anecdotally, there are some people that I know who've had mental health stuff who have been men.
Beth Cimini:They've had a harder time because they've been told there are a lot of resources that are for women only just because not enough men sign up for, say, a group therapy thing that they can even fill the class to the point where the it's makes financial sense for them to run it. And so I think, I think to some degree, it's that women talk to each other about this more. But, one of, for me, the good things about social media that has also a lot of bad things, but was, again, finding other people who seem to be going through the same stuff I was. And so the there's good aspects that will hopefully come from culturally sort of sharing these things. And, again, for both men and women that, that these things happen in their normal on their need to be dealt with, but then they can be sort of survived.
Peter O'Toole:Well, that's a really good point, Ingrid. I can see you nodding.
Kedar Narayan:I just think that is such a good that is such a good point. Yeah. I mean, because it's just been sort of beaten into our brains, right, that we're supposed to be, you know, strong and start deep out, ourselves and so on. And I'm I'm sure some of us, I'm sure can, but for those of us who can't, I think being forced to to do I mean, by us, I mean, men in this in this case. I think, yeah, it's unfortunate, and I'm I'm so happy you brought that up because it's absolutely not right.
Kedar Narayan:So especially if you're a man and if that that's, one extra thing to to break down, just just do it. Talk to somebody.
Jason Rodgers:Did you find some of
Kedar Narayan:the data?
Jason Rodgers:Sorry. I think that's very good as well. Because, certainly, here and where I am and also in Edinburgh where the Bite Size Bio offices, everywhere you go, there's little leaflets on the walls in in bathrooms or in corridors or in notice boards. And I I think it's called Andy's Man Club over here. And it's it's a mental health support group for men.
Jason Rodgers:It's all it's targeted directly at men. And on the surface, some people might think it might, you know, might be a bit sexist or not. But I think it's actually more to address this issue that men don't speak up or not as much as women do. And so there are things out there for people and as countless resources. I mean, when I spoke up, I had to, I actually formed a mental health support line who put me in touch with a charity that about mental health.
Jason Rodgers:And even then, when I went to my local pharmacy to get medication, they the they had a little chat with me as well and said there's more support here and went through everything. So it's it is out there. It's just speaking up that you need it, that you need to go and get it. That it's there for you to get to have and to take. It's just crossing that barrier to actually accept it.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. So we are up to well, just beyond the hour. I think it's worth the extra and I am going to say, so anything any last words that anyone would like to say? I'll I'll go round my my window. Kate, are there any last tips or bits of advice or anything you'd like to say?
Kedar Narayan:If there's one thing I could say, it would be that, you can learn to be resilient. I think sometimes there's this thing of, you know, people are either sort of in internally weak or internally strong or, but but you can actually learn to be resilient. The thing for me was I figured out early that my brain was, you know, magnifying the defeats and and and minimizing, my successes. And so I found that correcting for that and accepting wins for what they are was actually good. And even if it meant that you're creating a little bit of a story line for yourself of successes, your brain is gonna tell you, you're a faker.
Kedar Narayan:Right? You're just you're just making something up. You're just making your own sort of, hagiographic hagiographic story line, but that's okay. Just work through it, allow yourself to have the wins, and then with time, you'll start building that resilience so that when you do have setbacks, which will have been which eventually will happen, that, again, when you you realize that it isn't perhaps as bad as your brain is making out to be, that can be learned with time too. So, yeah, you can learn resilience.
Kedar Narayan:It just takes diamonds and effort.
Peter O'Toole:Thanks, Kayda. And Beth?
Beth Cimini:I think one thing that was really helpful to me sort of in pop culture as I was sort of dealing with a lot of this It's, there's a writer named Jenny Lawson. She blogs under the name of the blog s, and she deals with mental health stuff and talked about depression lies. And, Kaydar mentioned earlier, again, just sort of the this guilt and shame stuff. But so if you're feeling this way about yourself, depression lies. Depression tells you that you're not as good as you are.
Beth Cimini:And so I think it sort of builds nicely on what you were just saying about sort of make yourself the story that you're winning. Like, it's not that is actually the real story. It's that your brain is lying to you and telling you that you're not succeeding, but you can you can learn to change your thinking patterns. And I I hope that one of the sort of things that we can sort of do as a society is, again, go away from this. Like, you are either a strong person or a great person, but the growth.
Beth Cimini:Everybody has the potential to grow if they want to. And there is help out there. There are people out there who are gonna understand and gonna be there for you. It might take some time to find the right resources that you need, but if your brain is telling you that you can't get through this, that's your depression line too.
Peter O'Toole:That's top top tip there. Thank you. And, Jason?
Jason Rodgers:I think I'd say that, my my stuff can't come to more from anxiety rather than depression. And, I've found that, I mentioned earlier as well that Basis Bio works at home all the time. We work remotely, although we do have a shared office. I now go to the office a lot more and and get a lot more social interaction for it. And I would say that, finding something that helps you to get out of bed, something that helps you to function as such a huge help as it can be difficult to find that and it's it's definitely easier said than done.
Jason Rodgers:But once you do and you know what that is, it's it's a huge help. So I've the example is for me anyway, it's obviously, I I go to the office and, that helps me massively. But as stupid as this sounds, because this is the other bit, no matter how stupid it sounds, it's not stupid because it works. I bought a little, plush toy from the Final Fantasy games, partly as a joke. And it sits on my desk in the office, and I get so excited to go to the office to see this stupid little plush toy that, the days where I've woke up and, it's an office day, and I'm like, I really can't be bothered going to the office.
Jason Rodgers:I'm struggling to get out of bed. I'm not in the right headspace. I've made myself get, in the car and go to the office. So I've been excited to see everybody else in the office and this stuffed little plush toy.
Peter O'Toole:I'm so glad you said that the other people in the office and your plush toy. Because I was gonna say
Jason Rodgers:That's but, honestly, whatever you find helps you, it may feel stupid to yourself. Because I I've said exactly those same words, that's stupid plush toy. That's the exact words I've said to everybody else. And, so many other people have went, it's not stupid because it helps you. It's not stupid because it works.
Jason Rodgers:And it really isn't stupid. No matter how much I say it, it's not and I and I say it comically more than anything else. But something like that, when it helps, it does help massively or so I've found anyway.
Peter O'Toole:So we we should wrap up because we are over the hour. I have no apologies for being over the hour today though because I think it's been really important. What you've heard today will resonate with some, men will not resonate with others. There'll be some of you who are maybe facing milder problems, some of you may be more severe problems. But hopefully today has helped everyone there and will help you thinking forward as well.
Peter O'Toole:So on the microscopies, I've got to thank Kaydar, Beth, and Jason, for sharing their stories, their advice, their tips. It's been a very personal experience for everyone and to open up about this. Okay. Glad you didn't realize, k, that you haven't tongued anyone. So this is, hopefully, I think please share this this recording.
Peter O'Toole:Please pass it on because I think this is really important for people to listen or to watch. Everyone, thank you very much for today.
Beth Cimini:Thank you so much.
Jason Rodgers:Thank you. Yeah. Bye.
VX:Thank you for listening to The Microscopists, a Bite Size Bio podcast sponsored by Zeiss Microscopy. To view all audio and video recordings from this series, please visit bitesizebio.comforward/themicroscopists.
